WAG vestibular issues or something else?

[marie83]

Hi all,

I have a gymnast who started having issues going backwards 4 years ago. She was 9 years old, had her bhs on beam and was well on her way to becoming a super gymnast. One day she came into the gym and just couldn't go backwards. I remember pm'ing @dunno about this and he helped a lot - we made a lot of progress by ignoring the skills she couldn't do until she felt comfortable doing them. Fast forward 4 years and she is still having issues - having had the skills back and 'lost' them again numerous times.

Could this still be vestibular after 4 years or do you think that by now it might just be a habit (for want of a better word)?

She still says she can't do it because it doesn't feel right (this bit sounds like vestibular to me!) but we now have a new lead coach who believes that it might be that she has had these issues for so long that she now tells herself it doesn't feel right if I am not stood in to spot - on the whole she will do the backwards elements with a spot, but as soon as I walk away she won't/can't attempt it

We have noticed that the gymnast will achieve the skills again and then when she knows a competition is approaching suddenly can't do them (and we firmly believe it is can't, not won't). Is this a coincidence or has she learned this behaviour too?

The new coach would like me to try giving her an ultimatum - no backwards tumble, no competition, no competition no squad membership. I feel that I know this gymnast well having coached her for a long time and believe that might not be the best idea but at the same time it might need to happen as she hasn't competed now for over a year and is taking up a squad place which are becoming highly sought after. I do wonder whether I have been too soft/too understanding so now she thinks it's ok not to do the skills because she gets to stay in the squad anyway, so why does she need to push herself? but then other times I look at how upset she gets when she 'can't' do something and know she isn't doing it on purpose!

Apart from her lack of backwards elements she is a beautiful gymnast who clearly loves what she does - I'd hate to lose her over this if it can be fixed. Her mum asked me about hypnotherapy - I think they are at their whits end too with frustration for their daughter (not with her!) is this something that might help?

Has anyone ever experienced anything like this for this long? Any words of wisdom/encouragement?

Thanks!

 

[Deleted member D3987]

the "new lead coach" had better take a back seat to the throes of the vestibular system. you get it...he/she doesn't.

 

[Deleted member 14190]

What may have started as Vestibular issues is now full on Mental caused by Anxiety. That is why they lose the skills when it's close to meet time, Anxiety builds up and the balking starts. It is no coincidence . But regardless of what is going on, less stress and pressure is the only route. You can still do upper level gymnastics without back tumbling, we have done it in the past. try Doc Ali

 

[Jenny]

Actually coach p she is saying the opposite to that. She gets the skills back when she needs them for a meet and loses them immediately after. I have had a couple like that who would miraculously show up with the make or break skill for that level when needed and then lose it again.

I always thought they wanted to do the comp so much they managed to overcome their fear when the pressure was on. Once the skill wasn't "needed" they couldn't force themselves any longer.

I would also be interested in any way to deal with this as it is frustrating for everyone. Fortunately at higher levels we have the option of avoiding some skills but not all ie by competing round off tuck back instead of r off flick tuck back, And doing front dismounts on beam.

 

[Faith]

While I am highly sceptical about the "woo" arts, I'd consider hypnotherapy I think if the parents are willing.

I don't think I believe in hypnosis and hypnotic trances. What I do believe it does is make you feel relaxed and safe, then help you visualise yourself doing whatever it is. A good hypnotist should help her visualise doing backwards moves and associating that with happy feelings, not fear. Your trouble might be finding one who has enough understanding of gymnastics!

Obvious a sports psychologist is another way to go, and I believe things like nlp and Alexander technique work the same ways?

 

[Deleted member 14190]

Actually coach p she is saying the opposite to that. She gets the skills back when she needs them for a meet and loses them immediately after. I have had a couple like that who would miraculously show up with the make or break skill for that level when needed and then lose it again.

I always thought they wanted to do the comp so much they managed to overcome their fear when the pressure was on. Once the skill wasn't "needed" they couldn't force themselves any longer.

I would also be interested in any way to deal with this as it is frustrating for everyone. Fortunately at higher levels we have the option of avoiding some skills but not all ie by competing round off tuck back instead of r off flick tuck back, And doing front dismounts on beam.

This is what she posted. "
"We have noticed that the gymnast will achieve the skills again and then when she knows a competition is approaching suddenly can't do them (and we firmly believe it is can't, not won't). Is this a coincidence or has she learned this behaviour too? ""

 

[marie83]

Thanks for your answers. Yes @coachp is correct. This gymnast will start to panic when a competition is approaching and lose her skills again. I do think there is more to it now than there used to be. You can see a complete change in her behaviour.
I'll speak to her parents again on Thursday and see whether they have looked into Anything!

 

[Jenny]

This is what she posted. "
"We have noticed that the gymnast will achieve the skills again and then when she knows a competition is approaching suddenly can't do them (and we firmly believe it is can't, not won't). Is this a coincidence or has she learned this behaviour too? ""

that is so weird I completely read that the wrong way round.

 

[marie83]

that is so weird I completely read that the wrong way round.

Not to worry I do that all the time!

 

[Mrs. Puma]

that is so weird I completely read that the wrong way round.

I'll be honest, I read it that way too at first! I had to go back and reread it. You're not crazy!

 

[LizzieLac]

Agree it now sounds like anxiety so maybe a sports psychologist could help.

 

[Clover]

In my very limited experience what may start out as vestibular issue ends up as a confidence issue, which can persist even after the vestibular issue is gone. I agree about a visit to a sports psychologist.

 

[gracyomalley]

Yep - vestibular and then confidence/anxiety stuff follows - bit of a pickle. I do know that DD got a gentle ultimatum of "L8 if you can do the skills I know you are capable of, L7 or don't compete if not"....and quit for a couple months...but this was after she spent 2 years "forcing" herself to do the backwards beam acro series in meets (always hit...but probably could count on one hand the times she did in without spot outside of competitions). We are slowly getting her to see that maybe a sports psychologist can help (she has one - they are working on her other non-gym issues in the context of gym...but mention "mental toughness" and she's a clear "that doesn't work for me"). Still unable to "make herself do" back tumbling more advanced than L5/L6 series on floor or beam - although lots of standing back tucks, even on low beam. Working some harder front tumbling as her strength comes back.

Four years is a long time. Kudos to the kid/coach for hanging in there - this stuff can be a daily confidence wrecker for them - DD certainly doesn't know WHAT to think about herself anymore. But she still went back to the gym and is trying to work on stuff while not comparing herself constantly to the other girls. If gymnastics is still a positive thing for the above kid - then as a parent I'd hope her coaches would continue to be supportive - but I certainly understand how frustrating it must be to see them stuck like this!

 

[Deleted member 14190]

NEVER LET WHAT YOU DO IN THE GYM CHANGE HOW YOU THINK OF YOURSELF AS A PERSON. That is written on the chalk board in our gym.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

While I am highly sceptical about the "woo" arts, I'd consider hypnotherapy I think if the parents are willing.

I don't think I believe in hypnosis and hypnotic trances. What I do believe it does is make you feel relaxed and safe, then help you visualise yourself doing whatever it is. A good hypnotist should help her visualise doing backwards moves and associating that with happy feelings, not fear. Your trouble might be finding one who has enough understanding of gymnastics!

Obvious a sports psychologist is another way to go, and I believe things like nlp and Alexander technique work the same ways?

it's been tried. doesn't work.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

the question that you all must ask is "has any modality ever permanently removed or cured a vestibular problem?"

now, if someone tells you yes and they have research and proof to back it up i will send you all a case of chalk.

anecdotal bs doesn't count...

 

[Deleted member D3987]

and from a colleague:


Fear Wm A Sands, PhD, FACSM, C-ARS, NREMT, WEMT, CSCS
Rick McCharles
recently made a statement about one of my 2012 Congress lectures regarding “fear.” I
believe the presentation to which he was referring was one on growth and development and the idea that children’s brains must grow, mature, and develop to a certain leve
l before they become aware of consequences of performances as potential “threats,”
and when they do, they often confront fear for the first time in a gymnastics context.

Piaget (called the “giant in the nursery)remarked that children between the ages of 11 and 13-16 years become more sensitive, perceptive, conscious of themselves and others, reflective and have a tendency to over-analyze. However, assigning specific ages to brain and social development, growth, and maturation and the resulting behaviors invites criticisms from all quarters because there will be glaring exceptions. Fear is a useful survival emotion that provides clear evolutionary advantages in terms of an avoidance reaction.

Interestingly, most people describe responses to fear as a “fight or flight” reaction. This is so common that I practically leave my seat every time I hear it. The actual reaction is one of “fight, flight, or freeze.” This triad of responses commonly appears in the animal kingdom, humans included. Perhaps the phrase “frozen with fear” comes to mind. Hunters are well aware of the “freeze” response among animals who are attempting to avoid detection due to the obvious fear of being something’s dinner.

Coaches and athletes often experience the same thing, beyond the ken of reaction time, when a decision is nearly impossible to make. However, I do not want to give the impression that fear is simple, it is not. A 2005 Gallup poll on what 13-15 year old adolescence fear resulted in the following: 1.
terrorist attacks,2.
spiders,3.
death,4.
being a failure,5.
war,6.
heights,7.
criminal or gang violence, 8.
being alone,9.
the future,10.

nuclear war.Interestingly, as far as I know, there are only two truly inborn fears
–
a fear of loud noises (startle) and a fear of falling (6). Clearly, a fear of falling comes up in gymnastics, and one might say that falling elicits
sort of a “fundamental” fear and associated avoidance reaction.
All other fears are learned.


From a physiological standpoint, the amygdalae of the brain are probably the places where fear reactions and emotion distress are most commonly processed. The amygdalae (they come in pairs) are part of the limbic system and thus considered responsible for memory and emotion. In fact, memory coupled with high emotion is particularly powerful in terms of storage and recollection of memories. The amygdala is connected to the hypothalamus and activates the sympathetic nervous system (SNS). The S
NS is your “action-oriented” nervous system. Interestingly the amygdalae are also part of the memory consolidation system and thereby take early learning experiences and shift them to other parts of the brain for more permanent storage (1, 7, 10).

Moreover, the “emotionalness” of the learning experience appears to have considerable bearing on the richness of subsequent memories and a corresponding difficulty in forgetting or controlling emotional responses elicited by these memories. Trying to avoid great detail, the coach may appreciate the role of the brain, particularly the amygdalae
in the control or lack of control of emotions. The physiological underpinnings of a “bad experience,” and the sequelae that can result, involve the amygdalae. Fear, goes without saying, is “natural.”
In short, fear is not some hocus-pocus thing that arises without a physiological foundation. My major point is that while treating fear and dealing with the problems of irrational fears can be astonishingly difficult, there is a physiological and anatomical location for these issues and they are not merely an issue of “character” or “courage.”
Fear is one of the topics that is commonly discussed and covered in the lay literature of gymnastics (2-5,8) and has even been linked to a problem of learned helplessness (9). However, given the unpleasant nature of fear, and the problems of studying things that are unpleasant, it is unlikely we will have a large scientific background for either the study or treatment of fear in gymnastics.
As a personal closure, I frankly don’t remember much of a problem with fear in my own gymnasts. I believe the reason for this was that our progressions were so long and painstaking that the development of fear was less likely. The few times I was aware of fear from the athletes, I made a point of asking them directly for the part of the skill that was “scary.” By knowing this, I could then design learning drills that would obviate or sort of “side step” the scary part. I had a policy of absolutely no spotting in my gym, so I had to be extra vigilant and creative when it came to athlete behavior and drills designed to mold their performance in the direction I sought. References 1. Berthoz A, Israel I, Georges-Francois P, Grasso R, and Tsuzuku T. Spatial memory of body linear displacement: What is being stored?
Science
269(5220): 95-98, 1995. 2. Feigley DA. Coping with fear in high level gymnastics, in:
Psychological nurturing and guidance of gymnastic talent
. JH Salmela, B Petiot, TB Hoshizaki, eds
.
Montreal, Canada: Sport Psyche Editions, 1987, pp 13-27. 3. Feigley DA. Coping with fear.
Technique
9: 4-9, 1989. 4. Gould D and Eklund RC. Emotional stress and anxiety in the child and adolescent athlete, in:
The child and adolescent athlete
. O Bar-Or, ed. Oxford, England: Blackwell Science, Ltd, 1996, pp 383-398. 5. Roth WT, Breivik G, Jorgensen PE, and Hofmann S. Activation in novice and expert parachutists while jumping.
Psychophysiology
33: 63-72, 1996.


6. Sands B,
Coaching women's gymnastics.
Champaign, IL: Human Kinetics, 1984. 7. Shadmehr R and Holcomb HH. Neural correlates of motor memory consolidation.
Science
277: 821-825, 1997. 8. Silva JM. Sport performance phobias.
International Journal of Sport Psychology
25: 100-118, 1994. 9. Weiller KH and Higgs CT. Female learned helplessness in sport.
Journal of Physical Education Recreation and Dance
60: 65-67, 1989. 10. Wolpert DM, Ghahramani Z, and Jordan MI. An internal model for sensorimotor

 

[windydays]

and from a colleague:

As a personal closure, I frankly don’t remember much of a problem with fear in my own gymnasts. I believe the reason for this was that our progressions were so long and painstaking that the development of fear was less likely. The few times I was aware of fear from the athletes, I made a point of asking them directly for the part of the skill that was “scary.” By knowing this, I could then design learning drills that would obviate or sort of “side step” the scary part. I had a policy of absolutely no spotting in my gym, so I had to be extra vigilant and creative when it came to athlete behavior and drills designed to mold their performance in the direction I sought.

This is so good!

 

[gymdog]

the question that you all must ask is "has any modality ever permanently removed or cured a vestibular problem?"

now, if someone tells you yes and they have research and proof to back it up i will send you all a case of chalk.

anecdotal bs doesn't count...

I don't think permanently removed or cured is right but vestibular rehabilitation therapy has been used (and you know the guy who used it, although It doesn't seem he's published anything about it so I don't want to share too many details on here). I've only heard of the one instance though so I doubt there is enough for a study. Of course you would need to meet specific criteria to be eligible for this. The gymnast in question wasn't balking, but was twisting or felt like she was twisting on all backwards skills, and the sensation disappeared when spotted.

So the bottom line is, I agree, unless the person you're working with has a background in neuroscience there is no hypnotherapy that is going to fix this because it isn't a problem of "mind over matter." It's a physiologically based problem and the answer may be that that athlete cannot do those skills. In fact...at this age and stage I would actually recommend that you go another route with forward skills or whatever else because she is not even progressing on basics, even if she did it would be unsafe for her to do more complicated backwards things. Sometimes an issue like this is fleeting and then gets resolved, but that is not what you're describing.

 

[marie83]

Thanks for your reply @graceyomalley. I'll definitely speak to her parents and suggest a sports psychologist. I think gym is still on the whole a positive experience for her, mainly because we have backed off when she 'can't' do stuff. The few times I have shown frustration with her have been horrible for both of us, so I have learned to let her work it out herself. I'm just worried that I could have done more, and sooner.
I also spoke to the lead coach today and said I would rather not give her the ultimatum because I am sure that wouldn't work for her.

We have entered her into her grades comp today with the go ahead of her parents and on he proviso that she is only missing 1 skill (her tuck back on floor) currently she has everything else (but I know what she is like!)

In the meantime I will encourage her parents to try getting in touch with a sports psychologist and hope that we might see some improvement after the competition.

Thanks so much to everyone for their input. Keep it coming if you have anything else to add!!