WAG When Is It Time To Quit Gym??

[gymdog]

the vestibular system is a part of the nervous system and brain and inner ear. it too needs time to mature...just as an organ, bone or muscle. and as those parts of the body are affected by daily life, so is the vestibular system. too many coaches take for granted just how complex the learning and retention of gymnastics is. and unfortunately in some humans, the VS has deficiencies that are inexplicable as well as idiopathic. and as i have stated before, the oberwhelming majority of the kids that experience this issue are some of the fastest twitched athletes that you will ever see. and it is this, the athletes ability to generate extreme metrics of linear force, with then twisting, rotating and twisting with rotations that cause the problems. as i have posted before, 1 kid thinks their round off flip flop is traveling 100 mph and the other 10mph. but both are actually traveling 10 mph. so when the kid says they think they are going to "fast" and they feel like they will miss their hands (illogical) and hit their head, do you really think it is professional and appropriate to call that kid "stupid", "lazy" and "headcase" and all the other derogatory things that i have heard 1st person and by others? and by the way, it is not a theory.

Vestibular system - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

i edited just a bit cause now you got me started...

Yes, not really a theory. Dunno knows very well, and I have met, a high level gymnastics coach with a Ph.D in biomedical engineering, and he is the main person educating coaches on this issue that I have seen. Unfortunately his influence hasn't spread wide enough yet. By the way, the Ph.D is just ONE of his numerous accomplishments and he also is a doctor of physical therapy. Whenever this is posted here, there are occasionally naysayers but I guess I will come to their side when one of them has a doctorate in a related field and posits a clear alternative.

While I also agree with the concept of mental blocks, as the brain is very complex and kids can have, um, "attitude issues", I just feel these usually start with vestibular issues that spread. Of course a kid can just refuse to try because they don't want to, but the difference is usually clear to even a casual observer. You will often see a kid in gymnastics who will do it one day and then another day, freeze. It will happen once or twice, but maybe they go that day on the next five. Then it gets worse. They often report that they are "twisting", "going too fast", "just can't let go/throw it/whatever." But the coach is frustrated because the child isn't twisting, or going faster, or doing anything different. But the child perceives it that way because the forces that orient their body are suddenly out of whack. And it does happen over time. A child's body is maturing and subtle changes can change the child's perception over time as they grow and mature. This is a reason it would be physically inappropriate for a 12 year old to drive, for instance, even if they were extremely mature at decision making

 

[Deleted member D3987]

the vestibular system is a part of the nervous system and brain and inner ear. it too needs time to mature...just as an organ, bone or muscle. and as those parts of the body are affected by daily life, so is the vestibular system. too many coaches take for granted just how complex the learning and retention of gymnastics is. and unfortunately in some humans, the VS has deficiencies that are inexplicable as well as idiopathic. and as i have stated before, the overwhelming majority of the kids that experience this issue are some of the fastest twitched athletes that you will ever see. and it is this, the athletes ability to generate extreme metrics of linear force, with then twisting, rotating and twisting with rotations that cause the problems. as i have posted before, 1 kid thinks their round off flip flop is traveling 100 mph and the other 10mph. but both are actually traveling 10 mph. so when the kid says they think they are going to "fast" and they feel like they will miss their hands (illogical) and hit their head, do you really think it is professional and appropriate to call that kid "stupid", "lazy" and "headcase" and all the other derogatory things that i have heard 1st person and by others? i call bull&^(%. and by the way, it is not a theory.

Vestibular system - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

i edited just a bit cause now you got me started...but in essence, we are saying the same thing. it is just your misunderstanding of what you "think" you see vs. what is actually happening inside their bodies on any given day. as food for thought, what would be the explanation be for an athlete that HAS seen the worst crashes (and i'm leaving out here what some kids see weekly and some of what i had seen myself as an athlete) and still manages to forge ahead with no apparent confidence problems? there is an answer for this. i know what the several explanations are. and for most, it has nothing to do with what you might think. it's all about biology and neuroscience. and none of us are "hardwired" the same. and if i wasn't right (not to mention that i am pretty educated...not brag just fact) then why is it that we don't have as many gymnasts in the world as there are soccer players?

the sport is the hardest. athletes drawn to it are special as you find out much later once they have been given time to develop. and the sport comes with it a host of physical and mental demands not found in any other activity. think...just how many activities are there where the kids learn very early on that something "catastrophically" can happen to them if they don't have their head on straight every damn minute they train? think about it...

the kids need respect...not to be told they are headcases and such. again, i call bull^%$#.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

yikes! i quoted within my own quote.

 

[GymMomK]

the kids need respect...not to be told they are headcases and such. again, i call bull^%$#.

I agree! I was joking about my dd. she's very high spirited and determined and some people look at it the wrong way.

She had a lot of ear infections around 1. I wonder if this has anything to do the possible vestibular issues?

 

[Deleted member D3987]

Yes, not really a theory. Dunno knows very well, and I have met, a high level gymnastics coach with a Ph.D in biomedical engineering, and he is the main person educating coaches on this issue that I have seen. Unfortunately his influence hasn't spread wide enough yet. By the way, the Ph.D is just ONE of his numerous accomplishments and he also is a doctor of physical therapy. Whenever this is posted here, there are occasionally naysayers but I guess I will come to their side when one of them has a doctorate in a related field and posits a clear alternative.

While I also agree with the concept of mental blocks, as the brain is very complex and kids can have, um, "attitude issues", I just feel these usually start with vestibular issues that spread. Of course a kid can just refuse to try because they don't want to, but the difference is usually clear to even a casual observer. You will often see a kid in gymnastics who will do it one day and then another day, freeze. It will happen once or twice, but maybe they go that day on the next five. Then it gets worse. They often report that they are "twisting", "going too fast", "just can't let go/throw it/whatever." But the coach is frustrated because the child isn't twisting, or going faster, or doing anything different. But the child perceives it that way because the forces that orient their body are suddenly out of whack. And it does happen over time. A child's body is maturing and subtle changes can change the child's perception over time as they grow and mature. This is a reason it would be physically inappropriate for a 12 year old to drive, for instance, even if they were extremely mature at decision making

shhhh...dunno whispers...this guy also has a PhD in environmental engineering...shhh...dunno whispers...

 

[Deleted member D3987]

I agree! I was joking about my dd. she's very high spirited and determined and some people look at it the wrong way.

She had a lot of ear infections around 1. I wonder if this has anything to do the possible vestibular issues?

yes, it is not only possible but plausible also.

 

[GymMomK]

yes, it is not only possible but plausible also.

Chiropractor worked his magic on her then and she has been free and clear ever since, wonder if we could try him again now

 

[Deleted member D3987]

um, no. don't think that will "alter" anything in this case.

 

[iwannacoach]

the kids need respect...not to be told they are headcases and such. again, i call bull^%$#.

Go get em tiger. I'm with ya all the way.

 

[Gymsanity]

Well, vestibular or otherwise, I believe the fix is the same. Lots of patience, understanding, reassurance, and reprogression.

 

[Deleted member 14190]

Go get em tiger. I'm with ya all the way.

==
That being said, I think it important to note that some kids are just not equipped mentally to be gymnasts, vestibular issues or not. Not every kid can be cured for fear issues.

 

[snowboardergirl]

==
That being said, I think it important to note that some kids are just not equipped mentally to be gymnasts, vestibular issues or not. Not every kid can be cured for fear issues.

Thank you for saying that!!! My daughter just quit optionals and I have been wondering if I should push her through. I didn't. Why? Because I just thought for her mental well being it wasn't good. I counted back and out of the past year she spent 8 months of it stressed out not wanting to go b/c of fear. Then she was fine for 3 months. Then she freaked out again at the new skills. More not wanting to go, injuries. I asked the coaches. They said to push her though. We really thought about it. She's a KID. Yes, she's very talented but is it REALLY worth all the struggle and mental anguish. What are we really getting out of this? You can have all the talent in the world but you hit the nail and the head when you said some kids aren't mentally equipped for gymnasts. It's a SCARY sport. Not everyone can do that and there is NOTHING wrong with that!

 

[aerialriver]

Hijack for a second. Can adults also get vestibular issues or is it strictly related to growth?

 

[gymgal]

Hijack for a second. Can adults also get vestibular issues or is it strictly related to growth?

most definitely, though it usually results from disorders. Check the link below.
http://vestibular.org/

It is not just growth related in kids either. Many kiddos with autism have vestibular issues from very early on.

 

[Flipflopz]

My dd is a 12 yr old level 10. She has teammates with similar probs like you mention. i have seen the coaches lay off skills with these girls and slowly rebuild back to them. My observation is that is working.

 

[profmom]

My dd is a 12 yr old level 10. She has teammates with similar probs like you mention. i have seen the coaches lay off skills with these girls and slowly rebuild back to them. My observation is that is working.

Yep, I've seen it too. Three times with three different girls, all started with the same skill at L6 -- BWO on beam. All three are very good gymnasts and certainly had no trouble with BWOs and none had had any particularly scary or notable falls. One spent an extra year at L5 because she couldn't get it (now L8 training L9), one got it and competed it at 2-3 meets and then lost it completely for a month (now training L8), and the third got it and then lost it for a longer time (I think it was about 4 months) during the meet season. The third is the youngest, and last I heard, was working on her BHS on beam. I can see why it's frustrating for people who don't know what it's about -- the kid can obviously do the skill, but just won't do it, no matter what. It explains a few things for my DD as well.

 

[exgymnastmomx3]

Oh yeah, my dd had mental blocks. First the BWO on beam-got over it. Then the BH on beam- got over it. Then the giants- got over it. Then the BWO/BH on beam. Then BH/BH. These mental blocks went on over and over and over. They each went on a long time. However, she was always on top of the podium. She had impeccable form and was a beautiful gymnast. Two years of fear trying to flip the Yurchenko. BUT, she "loved" gymnastics even though she cried all of the time. She looked miserable to me by the age of 12, that's for sure! She made the rest of the family miserable in her quest to overcome it all and be great. OF COURSE we gave her an option to quit. She's a kid for heaven's sake, but she "said" she was happy. She looked otherwise. She was state champ multiple times over-AA and multiple events. Regional Champion AA and on multiple events through 8 and 9. 4th AA in Westerns and on bars. Level 10 by 14 and National Qualifier that year and the next. 2nd AA in Lv.10 Regionals both years she competed level 10. Every season she struggled- the bail, the BH back tuck on beam, then BH layout on beam, beam dismounts. Twisting the Yurchenko, getting the double back on floor, 2 1/2s. UGH! I could go on and on. All fear filled days, crying at night, long car rides home. It was miserable, but she SAID she loved gymnastics and she was happy and she wouldn't even think of quitting. Yes, she had supportive coaches. They tried everything. We had been at other gyms. Well, Jr. year, the coaches and I had to make her quit. She basically was a nervous wreck, wasn't eating enough, couldn't sleep, etc. THANK GOD she had coaches that cared more about her as a person than they did about keeping her in the gym. We took her to counseling and you know what she said? I can't believe my parents didn't see the signs of how miserable I was inside. She was so caught up in the gymnastics world and it being her identity that she didn't have any perspective. She was only 15 and gym was all she had known. Kids count on US to make sure they are thriving. Once outside the gym, she took up pole vaulting and she is completely a different person and she wishes I would have stepped in earlier. She is going to college in 2 weeks and will be pole vaulting there. Her only wish is that she had quit gymnastics earlier so she would have had more time to pursue this passion and wouldn't have spent so much time being miserable. We just got back from USA Track and Field JO Nationals in North Carolina. That is our story-Take from it what you want

 

[level9mom]

Thx. Very well said.


Every awful story begins with "we were on beam and..."

 

[kimskids]

My daughter is also 11 and has recently started having some issues on her beam connection. It is frustrating when they develop a fear with a skill they have had for a long time but I try to remember how frustrating it must be for her as well. She will do her BWO very slow and stop. Over and over again! Or she will keep turning to look at the beam as if to make sure it's still there. Unfortunately her coach is not super patient in dealing with these issues but I do see that if she is trying and actual appears to be working on them he's ok. When any of the girls just stand there or flop around in a way where its obvious they are not really trying he will send them to condition. Funny to me how the grew 15 lbs in the past year and a half and no issues till very recently??

 

[raenndrops]

Another possible idea for OP... does your daughter's team also compete Xcel? If so, she could spend a year competing in the Diamond Division (A, B, and C Skills allowed... only 5 A and 2 B required). She could work her feared skills in when she gets them back solidly. Since she is the highest level they have ever had, I don't know if they also do Xcel, but here are the requirements... it is for gymnasts who have competed JO levels 7, 8, or 9... and she could always switch back when she gets the skills back.
Bars:
1. Cast to 45° from Vertical
2. Min “B” Circling Skill
3. Release, pirouette or 2nd different Circling Skill, minimum “B” (but same skill on both bars counts as different skills)
4. Salto Dismount – High Bar

Beam:
1. Min. 1/1 Turn on one foot.
2. Dance Series – 2 skills (same or diff.) –
AND one Jump or Leap with 150° cross or side split (can be included in the dance series).
3. One Acro Skill with flight (isolated or in a series)
AND an Acro Series – with or without flight
4. Dismount- Salto or Aerial.

Floor:
1. Two separate acro connections each with a min. of two directly connected acro Flight skills.

2. Two different Saltos within the routine (isolated or in series) - one must be a min.“B” (may be included in SR#1).

3. Dance Passage with a min. of two diff. Grp.1 VP (directly or indirectly connected.) - one of which is a LEAP w/ a 150° cross or side split.

4. Turn on one foot min. “B” VP.