WAG Where are the parents?

[skschlag]

also I do see your reommendation that if a gym has a 20 percent injury rate in a year a gymnast should consider switching gyms.

Parents how many of your kids are on USAG teams where less than 4 in 20 miss or modify training for an injury for a week or more each year? I think the gyms under 4 in 20 in my area don’t have the capacity, unfortunately.

On our boys team of 55, we have had 3 out for gymnastics related injuries for more than a week this year.....

 

[gymnastmom05]

also I do see your reommendation that if a gym has a 20 percent injury rate in a year a gymnast should consider switching gyms.

Parents how many of your kids are on USAG teams where less than 4 in 20 miss or modify training for an injury for a week or more each year? I think the gyms under 4 in 20 in my area don’t have the capacity, unfortunately.

We have 4 out/injured/modified out of 55 currently. 3 were injured at the gym, 1 wasn't.

My DD has had to manage severs but the only time she had to adjust practice was after she also participating in a running program through her school. Was it gym or the running? In my opinion, it was just the perfect storm based on her time at gym, her time running and her age (big growth spurt occurring at the same time). Honestly if she hadn't joined the running program, I think it wouldn't have gotten to the point that it did. We learned and won't make that mistake again!

 

[Canadian_gym_mom]

Eh, I have two teenagers in my house and an older one in college. One is currently in that developmental stage in which any kind inquiry about anything serious or personal is met by a concrete wall topped with barbed wire with snipers behind it, fronted by a moat filled with sharks wielding laser beams.

Perfect imagry of talking to a teen! We just have to have a covert ops mission mentality and arm ourselves to the teeth!

 

[mommyof1]

However, they aren’t meaningful. Not in our metro area anyway.

The ER stats are meaningful unless there is some sort of unobserved variable bias (in other words, for the same exact injury, gymnastics parents are less likely to take their children to the ER than football parents, for some reason we can't measure and control for). They are limited in that they only tell us about injuries that are both acute and severe, but they do tell us something.

 

[sewgood]

Also one of the nastiest injuries I have personally seen at gym was from a gymnast tripping over her own feet and head butting the end of the beam, the swelling and the resulting bruising looked awful (I think they even fractured their jaw) if you didn’t know you would of assumed (and I’m sure many recreational parents did) she must of fallen from a piece of apparatus, so whilst that occurred in gym it wasn’t truly a gymnastics injury.

One of my worst injuries was from falling down bleachers at a meet. It was after awards and I was walking up to see my parents and tripped or something and down I went. So I was even done doing actual gymnastics for the day.

 

[gymgal]

I do not believe gymnastics does not have a much higher rate of injury—the apparatus height, the impact on joints from flipping and twisting and landing..

It ain’t rocket science. Just like the abuse in this sport, there is such a “heads in the sand” attitude.

You can’t work on improving what you chose not to see.

You can believe/not believe what you want but the stats do not support your belief. Just a cursory google search will pull up article after article stating that basketball, baseball, football and soccer all have higher rates of injury. And of course all the more "extreme" sports of skiing, snowboarding, biking, etc.

Height of an apparatus has nothing to do with it. We are literally talking about 3-6 ft off the ground. Most beam injuries happen when you are on the low beam, still learning the skill. Gymnasts are less likely to be injured on the high bar because gymnasts have learned to fall correctly or have coaches spotting, though when they are injured, the injury is more severe, but that's not the crux of your argument. Yes, joint impact is a big one but affects a gymnast more after she retires than when she is actually in the sport. Runners have more problems with impact injuries than gymnastics do, on average. I think the problem is the extent of the injuries. When an impact injury does occur in gymnastics, it is usually more severe. So it "stands out" in people's minds. But basketball by far has the most impact-injuries.

 

[Randomactsofcheer]

The ER stats are meaningful unless there is some sort of unobserved variable bias (in other words, for the same exact injury, gymnastics parents are less likely to take their children to the ER than football parents, for some reason we can't measure and control for). They are limited in that they only tell us about injuries that are both acute and severe, but they do tell us something.

I am curious to know what they consider a gymnast. The stats would be more meaningful if we knew whether recreational gymnasts are also considered in the total population. If rec gymnasts are included, then I feel the statistic does not accurately portray the ER injury rate for competitive gymnastics. I’d like to see the stats for rec gymnasts, competitive gymnasts, and the population as a whole. Those statistics would be more meaningful for parents considering competitive gymnastics.

 

[Sk8ermaiden]

A girl at our gym tripped over her own feet while jogging in a circle for warm up, on a foam floor. She shattered something in her elbow and required surgery and extensive time with no activity at all.

ETA sorry! Several posts between when I started typing that and when I finished.

 

[Midwestmommy]

I do know a couple of things about healthcare data analytics. I’ve tried, and I am unable to find any meaningful statistics on injury rates for USAG competitive gymnastics. With the advent of big data in the healthcare industry, more aggregate level competitive team injury information may be available in the future, but the underlying records need to be there. And I doubt it would be parsed by specific gyms. Although I do think our leading ortho clinic here in town asked my daughter what you are doing, which team, which level. So maybe some meaningful analysis will done down the road whether USAG likes it or not. I didn’t check on other competition tracks, only USAG.

Height of apparatus does come into play off the high bar, that’s far enough for the fall height to matter.

 

[Midwestmommy]

My very nonscientific poll of three parents who have JO kids at 3 different gyms in our area, their female JO teams are all over 15 percent missing or modifying for at least a week in the last 12 months. That’s only a small sample, we have lots of gyms. And yes what I see with my own eyes is that there is lots of room for improvement and more transparency in this sport, and lots of injuries. More than hockey, I’v seen lot of both sports.

 

[thefellowsmom]

Eh, I have two teenagers in my house and an older one in college. One is currently in that developmental stage in which any kind inquiry about anything serious or personal is met by a concrete wall topped with barbed wire with snipers behind it, fronted by a moat filled with sharks wielding laser beams.

OMG. I al literally rolling on the floor right now. Too funny!

 

[gymgal]

The funny thing was, as first me and then my DD realized what a disaster this training environment was, the HC was so good at manipulating people that my husband didn’t even believe us- he thought we were exaggerated, that my DD was too sensitive, that if she really wanted her shot she had to “man up” and take it.

This is certainly an issue with dads in general. My husband is like this and of the camp that thinks we are too "soft" on today's youth. There is a general clear line of what is considered physical abuse in sports but emotional abuse is much more blurry. I am not speaking to your coach, MIL. I am just saying generally I think males tend to feel some of the behavior is more "touch coach" than abuse. Calling out gymnasts for "being lazy" and "wasting their time" "why are you here if you're not going to listen and work?" are examples. Is that abuse or is that just being brutally honest? Personally, I think it doesn't help motivate the gymnast and has the opposite effect (though others would disagree with me), but is it abuse? Guess it depends on the situation

And it’s no badge of honor, but the approximate amount of money we spent over the years on medical deductibles and out of pocket amounts for gymnastics injuries? $9,000 more or less. The annual deductible on my health plan before anything is reimbursed at all is $2,500.

Irrelevant. It is just anecdotal. And I have you beat by more than double, for hockey. What does that mean? Absolutely nothing. It's still all anecdotal. Seriously, if you are in a high level of any sport, you are going to have injuries. Both overuse and traumatic.

I hear what you are saying about data for injuries. I just don't think it will be particularly useful. What exactly would you want the statistics to look at? Which gyms are "safer"? That's not comparable by injury stats without knowing who they train (number of gymnasts per level, number of hours, etc), how they train, etc. Is it for which injuries are most prevalent across gymnastics and how to prevent them? Those stats are already available. Again, I just don't see the purpose. I am not in the habit of wasting money for something that is not going to yield anything useful. We already fund too many useless studies in this country. just my two cents...

 

[Deleted member 18037]

And circling back.

You think you would know and you assume you would know but that doesn't mean you really would know.

I would know something was off. It might take me some time to find out the specifics I would know.

In gymnastics, yes I would know, if a coach was being abusive vs tough.

For many reasons that are too long to go into. I am a realist. Some might say skeptical. Especially when it comes to talking the talking vs walking the walk. A smile and a hug when everyone is watching gets no credit in my book. I call that giving good date.....

I assume she is not going to tell me everything. Like was said up the thread, I make sure she has folks she go to if she doesn’t want to come to me. And while she is a minor, I get to decide what’s best for her.

It’s not about what she would say, it’s about all the non verbal stuff. And the whole atmosphere of the gym/school/whatever.

 

[Midwestmommy]

This is certainly an issue with dads in general. My husband is like this and of the camp that thinks we are too "soft" on today's youth. There is a general clear line of what is considered physical abuse in sports but emotional abuse is much more blurry. I am not speaking to your coach, MIL. I am just saying generally I think males tend to feel some of the behavior is more "touch coach" than abuse. Calling out gymnasts for "being lazy" and "wasting their time" "why are you here if you're not going to listen and work?" are examples. Is that abuse or is that just being brutally honest? Personally, I think it doesn't help motivate the gymnast and has the opposite effect (though others would disagree with me), but is it abuse? Guess it depends on the situation

Irrelevant. It is just anecdotal. And I have you beat by more than double, for hockey. What does that mean? Absolutely nothing. It's still all anecdotal. Seriously, if you are in a high level of any sport, you are going to have injuries. Both overuse and traumatic.

I hear what you are saying about data for injuries. I just don't think it will be particularly useful. What exactly would you want the statistics to look at? Which gyms are "safer"? That's not comparable by injury stats without knowing who they train (number of gymnasts per level, number of hours, etc), how they train, etc. Is it for which injuries are most prevalent across gymnastics and how to prevent them? Those stats are already available. Again, I just don't see the purpose. I am not in the habit of wasting money for something that is not going to yield anything useful. We already fund too many useless studies in this country. just my two cents...

Goal- To improve safety and minimize long term impact of injuries in a sport where huge hours and skills are required of young preteens.

And better information on all youth sports injuries to help us improve and develop best practices.

I for one am not afraid to turn over the rock and seewhat is underneath.

And I think parents should demand more information.

Leaps in healthcare data analytics are already helping us understand all sorts of things related to health and treatments and lifestyle in recent years, and I don’t think youth sports is going to get a pass.

Why am I not surprised that USAG will probably have to be dragged kicking and screaming instead of leading the effort.... sigh

 

[skschlag]

Again..show me an amateur organization that HAS those stats readily available to anyone. Football? Basketball? Soccer? My kids have done plenty, and I have never seen any thing like this anywhere.

No one is saying they are "afraid" of the stats. No one has approached USAG about this. And honestly, USAG has many other things to deal with first.

 

[Randomactsofcheer]

I hear what you are saying about data for injuries. I just don't think it will be particularly useful. What exactly would you want the statistics to look at? Which gyms are "safer"? That's not comparable by injury stats without knowing who they train (number of gymnasts per level, number of hours, etc), how they train, etc. Is it for which injuries are most prevalent across gymnastics and how to prevent them? Those stats are already available. Again, I just don't see the purpose. I am not in the habit of wasting money for something that is not going to yield anything useful. We already fund too many useless studies in this country. just my two cents...

If we don’t have accurate statistics as to just the injury rate for competitive gymnasts, then it is highly unlikely that the “which injuries are more prevalent” statistics are accurate, either. Injury data is useful in any youth (and adult) sport because it allows parents to make informed decisions as to whether or not they want their children to participate in a sport and at what level. Participation in youth tackle football has declined significantly now that accurate data regarding injuries is readily available for parents. And there has also been a major push to make tackle football more safe for youth. Yes, for some parents these statistics will not be useful if they want their child to participate in a sport regardless of the risk of injury. But some parents may not allow their child to participate at all with the knowledge of the risk of injury. And other parents may be more aware of safety concerns at their child’s gym if they are aware of the statistics. A gym with an injury rate that is significantly higher than the national average is an indicator to parents that the coaches may lack training or that something may be wrong with the gyms safety practices.

Going back to the football example: My husband played football from pop warner to college. If we had a son, he would have been counting down the days until he was old enough to play. For years he encouraged his sister to enroll her sons in pop warner (they are 7 and 10). Not anymore. Now that he knows the brain injury statistics, he doesn’t think anyone under the age of 12 should play tackle football. He believes it isn’t worth the risk. But other parents may feel differently.

It’s about knowing the risk and making an informed decision based on that knowledge.

 

[Midwestmommy]

Athlete welfare has clearly not been a priority for USAG, perhaps that will change. Perhaps. There is some work being done in a few sports, I think that is the tip of the iceberg. This conversation will be a lot more interesting in 5 or 10 years, whether USAG likes it or not—if they are still around.

 

[Randomactsofcheer]

Again..show me an amateur organization that HAS those stats readily available to anyone. Football? Basketball? Soccer? My kids have done plenty, and I have never seen any thing like this anywhere.

No one is saying they are "afraid" of the stats. No one has approached USAG about this. And honestly, USAG has many other things to deal with first.

USA Football: https://usafootball.com/resources-tools/research-library/

 

[skschlag]

USA Football: https://usafootball.com/resources-tools/research-library/

That's great. It does show that this program works, but does not indicate # of instances or types of injuries incurred, and the percentage is XX% of what? So while it may be down 63%, what are they down from?

 

[raenndrops]

Anecdotally, my son has had many more minor injuries from baseball than any other sport (including gym). If you adjust for hours of practice, it increases even more.

And my DD has had more total (minor) injuries from gym class at school than gymnastics.

Edit: My DD is the one who has had a few gymnastics injuries. One acute and two overuse (and a couple more minor ‘overuse’ issues that resolved in a week or so). She also has never been to an ER (knock on wood!).

Adjusting for hours of practice, I have had more injuries from TROMBONE than from football, baseball, volleyball, basketball, and gymnastics combined, lol.