Parents Who has responsibility?

[tuckfull]

Why do you have to be a coach/judge qualification to question whether a vault or bar routine is unsafe? Clearly safety is an overall issue on vault or else USAG wouldn't have new guidelines for vaults (which I thought were gradually being implemented across the highest levels?).

Just because a kid qualified to compete at a certain level doesn't mean she will safely have all requirements for the level. I'm not talking about the crashes and splitting the beam and the 'normal' stuff that happens (which fortunately always look very scary with no resulting injury). There are usually clues in the kid's form that giveaway that she/he may not be ready for the skill. The kid who doesn't hit a single giant in warm up but has decent form overall is more likely to be dealing with nerves or a just bad day. The kid who doesn't hit a single giant and struggles with poor form and other elements are the ones that scare me.

@meganliz77 referenced scary FHS. We are in the same state and I've seen some of those. A handful of those with a scary FHS will end up in L8 and not be adequately prepared for the flipping vault. I don't know WHY it happens but it sure makes me thankful for the years of drills that DD has been working on so that when it does come time for her to compete a flipping vault she won't still training it the day she competes it.

Which is why they changed the vault rules for L8 this past August, to try to prevent L8 kids from attempting scary and unsafe flipping vaults! We had a few L8s this season with beautiful flipping vaults, and a few others who have solid L8 skills on all other events, but competed a FHS vault with the 9.0SV until their flipping faults were competition ready.

Regarding the OP, its ultimately the coaches' responsibility to make sure their gymnasts are competing skills at their level safely and proficiently. I would imagine the majority of coaches want their gymnasts to 1) not get hurt and 2) perform well at meets since they are representing that gym. What happens at one meet, in one routine, is just a snapshot of that gymnast's abilities though. I watched a gymnast at one meet who looked like she couldn't walk a straight line on a beam - it was scary. It turns out she was getting over some ear thing and was suddenly really dizzy. Who knew?! She ended her season scoring mid 9s on beam but you'd never guess watching her at that one meet.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

Why do you have to be a coach/judge qualification to question whether a vault or bar routine is unsafe?

Let me clarify a few things.

I don't think the average parent is trained enough to know what is safe or not for a gymnast. Especially a random parent at a meet, who has never seen the gymnast before. That parent might have seen their own gymmie enough to have a feeling but a random parent deciding in their opinion a gymmie they don't know is unsafe. No it's not "their responsibility" to intervene.

Then add in the view from the "stands" is different from the view on the floor, where the gymnasts are competing. The angles are different, depth perception.

Rather like watching instant replay, you swear it's a touchdown or the ball was foul. And then you see it from a different camera angle and it turns out it was not a touchdown or a foul ball.

Again, I watched my kid wreck, from my view it looked like her head, it was actually her shoulder. And she was not hurt and her upset was more about not sticking her dismount. No we don't need a random parent evaluate and take "responsibility" for her skills and safety. That was for her coaches and I to deal with.

And, we have a gymnasts who bars skills are not very pretty, appendages bent, squat on can be hit or miss. Bar scores not "nice" at all. And I have seen plenty of these kids, she is not unique. She met the state requirement for states though. A decent gymmie. And she fights to get through her bar. She is very slowly improving. A less resilient more fearful kid might have quit by now. She could do flyaways before the pretty bar kids could and now giants (the Giants with spot though). Her kips are not pretty but she is getting them consistently now. It was hit or miss for a while. She is not unsafe. But Based on the description above some might think so.

I am sure if some random parent in the stands tried to get her pulled for after watching her warm up, her parents and our coach would be livid.

If someone random parent in the stands tried to get my kid pulled for whatever both my husband and I would be livid.

And if a judge or official on the floor had issues, our coaches would listen and adjust accordingly. But an unknown parent in the audience, not a chance.

 

[ProudDad]

I agree with many of the posts here and in all the cases where it is apparent that an individual is solid on the bulk of their skills but having difficulty with one or two skills that are either above the minimum or can just have a lower SV and still execute the routine while getting tenthed to death. In those cases, it is absolutely between the gymnast and their coach. What I witnessed was not this scenario.

My DD was able to do her layout flyaway, tuck flyway, and pike flyaway consistently. After coming back from an injury she was less consistent with the layout, she worked hard to get it back before her 1st meet back. The last practice at the gym before the meet went well, she only missed one with a big step. Got to the meet and warmups didn't go as well, so she competed the tuck and nailed it. Next meet she competed the layout and finally released nice and high, but landed on her feet and moments later, her butt. Neither was a safety issue, but the first meet the coach made a call and it didn't scar her or cause a mental block. Another meet she was 1 day post flu and hadn't gone to any of the last 6 practices - while the doctor gave the OK, he said she may be weak. We sat with the coaches and talked about we might have to scratch if any of us is concerned that she isn't up for it, she didn't have to scratch but she was between .5 and .75 lower than her typical scores on most events. Gymnastics is brutal both mentally and physically, that is a big part of the attrition as levels increase - and most people won't be able to make it to the higher levels no matter how hard they try, what constitutes higher is going to be different for each athlete.

I am reminded of the first few seasons of So You Think You Can Dance. There was one guy that came out in a gold outfit and called himself "Sex." It was painfully obvious that his dancing was not on par with those that were ultimately considered - it made him happy and his mom thought it was beautiful, BUT he was not competent enough to do the multitude of styles they would be asked to do and if selected could have potentially injured himself or his partner. He came back each year for a few seasons and my opinion is that he improved each time, but it was nowhere near enough to be seriously considered for the show - or any professional dance. This is the level of skill gap I believe I witnessed... or in pictures:

You can recognize what they were going for, but this attempt (and all the warm-ups) just weren't there that day AND included multiple uncontrolled falls.

Carlotta Ferlitto was obviously a case of SH. She missed her step by what looked to be less than a couple inches and she wasn't able to push off the beam. The only issue she has with bad form is the racist remarks she made against a couple years ago...

Because of travel time and a barter I have worked out with the gym I spend lots of time watching plenty of athletes ranging from rec to L10 work on skills. When we travel back to my hometown to visit family, I have had the privilege of watching the likes of Ragan Smith and Bailee Key work on their routines, and yes occasionally fall while doing it. I may not be a coach or a judge, but I can tell the difference between someone who is confident (or fearless) and is having a hard time, or is just barely missing it, or is coming back from an injury and is battling a fear or rebuilding strength - and someone who is consistently struggling to get even the most basic required elements with some semblance of form and when they fall - frequently - they flail and flop to the ground like a rag doll - especially from no more than 40 feet away.

Put another way: Let's say you have a theoretical gymnast who consistent scores between 33 and 34. Most would say she has room for improvement and with time and practice will likely bring that AA up. Now lets add in that she consistently scores between 9.4 and 9.6 on 3 events and on one can consistently only muster between a 4.5 and 5 if she doesn't scratch that event. All of her other events are there, but this one will hold her back - regardless of the reason - she isn't ready, YET, and may never be and that's ok.

I have a son that plays hockey... if he was having a bad game and couldn't stay up on his skates and couldn't maintain puck control for more than a few feet, I would expect the coach to bench him (and check for a concussion) and schedule some serious practice time. Just because gymnastics is one and done shouldn't be any different IMO - whether its a single skill, an event, or a whole meet (had that one happen to DD too).

 

[skschlag]

I watched a girl hit her head 3 times in warm ups on her vault (tsuk) . She would hit it on the vault as she flipped around. The coach kept sending her back to do it again. FInally, the judge stepped in and stopped it. It was bad. the one time she did not hit her head she nearly landed on it.

Those are the kid of "scary skills" I worry about.

 

[meganliz77]

Did OP ever suggest that a random parent say something? I must have missed that... I took the question at the beginning of the thread as more of a hypothetical/ethical type question, not "should I as a random parent intervene".

And random parent or not, by the time our gymmies have gotten to, say optionals, we have all sat through our fair share of practices and meets... I feel pretty confident In being able to tell the unsafe/not ready/scared/hesitant from the safe/solid/confident/apparently fearless.

But I can also say that I wouldn't be the one approaching random coaches, gymnasts, parents at a meet. That is not my place unless of course it is my child. Point is, one would hope that someone *would* be addressing this and that safeguards were in place for the sake of the gymnast. I took it as OP looking for that reassurance.

 

[ProudDad]

But I can also say that I wouldn't be the one approaching random coaches, gymnasts, parents at a meet. That is not my place unless of course it is my child. Point is, one would hope that someone *would* be addressing this and that safeguards were in place for the sake of the gymnast. I took it as OP looking for that reassurance.

Nailed it.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

What if pulling out stuff means all that's left is walk up and touch the bar and salute? .

That is really up to the gymmie and the coach.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

Did OP ever suggest that a random parent say something? I must have missed that... I took the question at the beginning of the thread as more of a hypothetical/ethical type question, not "should I as a random parent intervene".
.

Yeah, he did. He was wondering if like a civilian reporting an erratic, unsafe driver. Should someone (obviously not the coach or on the floor) report it.

When you see someone in the optionals program not only skipping skills and having a reduced SV, but also having a series of bad warm-ups where even base skills (pull overs) are not executed well, including one that results in a minor injury - who knows what the root cause is, but that day, at that meet, for that event - that athlete just appears to be very unsafe, not just having a bad day - lots of kids have bad days and unexpected falls that result in injuries regardless of their skill level. What about when it is very apparent that something is off and a fear for safety exists... when that happens is anyone obligated to step-in at athat time or after the fact report it? Do gyms get censured for allowing them to compete? Does it only happen after the fact and only if a gymnast is injured, if at all? The judges came out after warm-ups, so could not have known prior... can they, and should they after fact at least inquire?

 

[wallflower]

ProudDad your question and post are confusing to me. You asked as if it were a SAFETY issue you were concerned about, but then you go on to describe this kids bar routine as having a bad glide, a muscled kip, no clear hip, etc. So you are describing someone who isn't good at bars, not someone who isn't safely doing skills. There is a really big difference between having poor form and not making any of your skills and being unsafe.

My general feeling from your post is that you saw this gymnast and didn't feel she belonged at level 6 state. You are clearly shocked by how bad she was.

Who cares? She isn't your daughter, it isn't your gym and it's not your problem.

I'd be more inclined to think you were truly interested in the discussion of safety if you were talking about level 8's vaulting to their heads at a meet or level 9's committing suicide on bar changes.

But you are talking about a level 6 who isn't prepared on bars. A bad kip, a cast below horizontal, no free hip. The kid looks like a rag doll. Not the same as dangerous where someone should step in and stop her.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

^^^^^^^ And yes this.

 

[wandrewsjr]

I have seen too many level 4,5 and 6's peel off on bars, dislocating elbows or breaking arms or worse at meets. I would consider someone looking like a ragdoll on bars to be a safety issue.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

Put another way: Let's say you have a theoretical gymnast who consistent scores between 33 and 34. Most would say she has room for improvement and with time and practice will likely bring that AA up. Now lets add in that she consistently scores between 9.4 and 9.6 on 3 events and on one can consistently only muster between a 4.5 and 5 if she doesn't scratch that event. All of her other events are there, but this one will hold her back - regardless of the reason - she isn't ready, YET, and may never be and that's ok.

That is your opinion and you are entitled to it. But the only time it is your call to make is if it is actually your kid.

 

[ProudDad]

ProudDad your question and post are confusing to me. You asked as if it were a SAFETY issue you were concerned about, but then you go on to describe this kids bar routine as having a bad glide, a muscled kip, no clear hip, etc. So you are describing someone who isn't good at bars, not someone who isn't safely doing skills. There is a really big difference between having poor form and not making any of your skills and being unsafe.

Who cares? She isn't your daughter, it isn't your gym and it's not your problem.

But you are talking about a level 6 who isn't prepared on bars. A bad kip, a cast below horizontal, no free hip. The kid looks like a rag doll. Not the same as dangerous where someone should step in and stop her.

The safety issues that concerned me weren't that she had difficulty with the skills, it was that she didn't appear to have confidence in herself to compete them and during multiple falls made no attempts to adjust her body to fall safely - which is where my "ragdoll" comment came in. I have seen hundreds if not thousands of missed skills where the athlete manages to move their body into a position as directed by their coach. I have watched as many of the girls intentionally practice falling from the high bar onto a crash mat over and over... you can tell that they know how to be as safe as possible in the event that something goes wrong. I did not see any evidence of that ability with this gymnast. While its not my kid or my gym it scares me to think that there may be gyms or coaches out there that may endanger their athletes - especially when there are plenty of new parents that don't know any better and may not have many -if any choices in a gym.

My curiosity was and is around the idea of whether or not someone qualified has not only the ability, but a mandate to protect child athletes that may be unsafe. From the folks that have given credentialed replies, it sounds like there is the ability, but no mandate - and it is rarely exercised. The reality is that I hope and pray that what I saw wasn't actually dangerous, because someone with the proper authority would have stepped up and done something if it were. Unfortunately, from the responses here it sounds like it is extraordinarily rare and may take far too many repeats if someone does intervene.

 

[raenndrops]

Just prior to my DD's state meet a couple weeks ago, she had a practice at her gym where she balked on her RO-BHS - BT. Fell on her back and head. Big problem there. She practiced the following day - 1/2 were fine, other 1/2 she balked and/or needed a spot.

Went to state that weekend. Performed an unspotted one beautifully, but coach was on the floor. Next one she threw - she stopped. Safely, but stopped. She can compete that darn skill beautifully, but on this day, this warm up it was NOT safe. She competed 2 ROBHS instead to meet her Level 6 requirements.

Ultimately, DD's coach made that call WITH my daughter. That is super important, especially when you are dealing with what appears to be fear. immediately, DD felt the pressure relieve and was confident in what she was doing. She knew she was not letting the coach down, and she did not have the added pressure of the back tumbling that has been bugging her the last month or so. And I would suggest, IMO, that it would be the coaches call and then the parents. And if needed, I would think the judges.

What your daughter did was use what we call "back pocket skills" - these are skills they have that they can substitute in, if needed OR ones they can add if they fall off beam (on beam, if a L6 falls on her across, she does a handstand so she doesn't get the double whammy of fall and missing SR).

 

[Jenny]

And the judges are not supposed to count anything that happens in a warm up. Their responsibility is to judge the routine.

They are not prejudging the routine. Over here nearly all judges are qualified coaches too (judging is unpaid and clubs have to provide qualified judges for each competition, hence they are often coaches). If they see a skill in warm up being repeatedly performed so badly it looks dangerous (you don't see spotting in competitions here so remember the kid has to go on alone and perform it in their routine) then judges have a responsibility to speak to the coaches.

The coach may be able to reassure them that this is how the kid warms up and they are confident they can do it properly in their routine.

If the judges are really unhappy I believe they are entitled to ask the skill not to be performed. Or suggest they substitute something else instead. We are talking higher level skills here with significant danger levels. Not compulsory level skills although I have seen a judge question a ROBHS once because it looked such a mess.

Also I am not talking ugly skills, skills that don't meet split or shape requirements. I am talking skills where the child is usually risking landing on head from significant height. That absolutely is the responsibility of every adult nearby to prevent.

 

[vbdb]

We were at a compulsory meet this weekend where the judges made a coach go out on floor to spot as they had a bunch of 8 year old L4s on floor that could barely make it through a single back handspring. One of them had her arms collapse under her on her second one and the judges but an end to that for the rest of them. Not a single one of those children were remotely ready to compete that level and IMO the coaches were endangering them by allowing them to compete.

But there certainly is a difference between not having great form and actually not being able to safely complete skills in a level. Unless a child is in danger leave them alone. This is pearl clutching from the OP and this reads to me as his idea of a "kinder, gentler" version of the original post that was deleted the other day. I think it's obvious to everyone that the adults in charge of the athlete are responsible for the safety of their athlete, I'd love to see a random parent pop up out of the crowd and try to tell someone that they should scratch a kid from an event because they didn't think they were doing it well enough.

 

[GymDad9.9]

We were at a compulsory meet this weekend where the judges made a coach go out on floor to spot as they had a bunch of 8 year old L4s on floor that could barely make it through a single back handspring. One of them had her arms collapse under her on her second one and the judges but an end to that for the rest of them. Not a single one of those children were remotely ready to compete that level and IMO the coaches were endangering them by allowing them to compete.

But there certainly is a difference between not having great form and actually not being able to safely complete skills in a level. Unless a child is in danger leave them alone. This is pearl clutching from the OP and this reads to me as his idea of a "kinder, gentler" version of the original post that was deleted the other day. I think it's obvious to everyone that the adults in charge of the athlete are responsible for the safety of their athlete, I'd love to see a random parent pop up out of the crowd and try to tell someone that they should scratch a kid from an event because they didn't think they were doing it well enough.

Sort of begs the question of how these girls became Level 4 gymnasts in the first place, if, of course, they weren't just having a bad day, didn't take their vitamins, have their pet goldfish flushed down the toilet, not enough ice in their water bottle, or not enough glitter in their hair.

 

[balancedmom]

I have to chime in here. Your note could have been about my DD. DD after a pretty bad injury that kept her out of the gym for months competed a couple of meets and at the last one-- states--looked horrible as if she could not do the skills. She competed because her coaches wanted her to get back out there and try. This was their call-- then knew she would not be competitive and she was not, but gosh I really hope the other parents did not think she should not be there-- I hope they thought-- wow, I hope that girl is not too upset about her performance, and maybe she was injured, or maybe she has some fears, and good for her for getting back out there. And, right after states, after the pressure is off, she is back to doing her giants, and back doing her skills on beam, so she CAN do the skills safely. She just needed some time and pressure off.

 

[buttercup]

I have never though "that kid shouldn't be here" at any meet I've been at. I simply don't know enough about the circumstances going on to make that call. If a routine is low scoring, due to sloppy or missing skills i have no issues with it. It was their best on that event on that day. I hope they can overcome whatever "demons" they are facing (mental blocks, physical injuries or a dead goldfish) and move on. My ds has done many watered down routines that were all he was capable at the time due to an injury or recovery from one. Can he do all the skills needed for the level he is at? YES just not on that particular day.

But there is a diffeence between sloppy or missing skills and ones that are dangerous. I have thought "that kid shouldn't be doing that skill today" when I see something dangerous looking happen repeatedly in warmup and in competition. And I do think someone should stop them before they get hurt. And I do wonder why their coach let's them continue (For our coach - it doesnt matter if the boy has done that skill everypractice for the last 2 weeks if it is dangerous in warmup it gets pulled from the routine.) And as a parent if were my ds- I would be talking to the coach after about it. This sport is dangerous enough without taking the added risk of competing something that's just not working for you on that day.

 

[ProudDad]

@balancedmom - I absolutely know that this kind of things happens and I am glad that things are working out well for your daughter and believe that those gymnasts are the real inspirations. In no way have I faulted the gymnast and have lauded the courage and determination displayed and applauded her performance that day - My focus has been on those who have responsibility for that gymnasts safety; however, everyone seems to miss the point of when any girl is several feet off the ground and falls down repeatedly when attempting skills that require her to be upside down - something needs to be in place for her safety - unless he was secretly the flash the coach was nowhere near close enough in the event that one of the many falls witnessed happened when her head was pointed straight down. I hace seen coaches poised and ready still not catch a gymnast because things can hapen so fast. Thankfully, no serious injury occurred - and yes it can happen to the best. This wasn't a question of form or talent - if a consist 38+ performer suddenly freezes up and starts dropping like a rock whenever they compete a skill then they are likely not safe to compete it that day- yes they need to work through it, but in a SAFE environment and work toward the goal of being able to consistently safely compete it, regarless of the score. There are tons of very talented girls who use BWO/BWO instead of BHS/BHS because they can't do the latter safely (yet) and there is nothing wrong with that.

First I would like to thank the coaches and judges who gave their qualified input based on knowledge, training, or experience to my original questions centered around "who if anyone can and should say something when they see a safety concern." I would also like to thank those that provided anecdotal experiences of when safety issues have been addressed as well as those that have provided their opinions on the overall situation.

This situation and thread has been very enlightening in a number of different ways:

• I am glad to see that there are so many that rush to protect the heart of anonymous athletes, compassion for others is something that the world needs more of - I am concerned however at how many would protect the heart from the concerns of a bystander that they will in all likelihood never even know had any concern in the first place, at the potential expense of significant injury, not to mention the potential for emotional injury when its human nature to compare yourself to others - and by design the scoring system encourages it. If this or any other athlete is able to compartmentalize and competes against themselves that is awesome and they will be much stronger and mindful people well beyond gymnastics.
• I also find it interesting that so many people accept that just because some gym puts a "staff" shirt on somebody and had them take the online U100 class, that they are infallible and that they don't have bad days either - there are plenty of threads on this forum about coaches that are less qualified to outright dangerous - including a recent one referencing drug abuse issues. I am not sayin g this coach is a horrible human being or incompetent, but I have seen plenty of coaches prepared to spot a skill that went far more smoothly in both warm up and competition - simply because they were safety minded, not because they didn't know or trust their gymnast - but so their gymnast could trust them to be there in case the worst happens. This day , with this athlete, on this event, my opinion is that the coach wasn't safety minded - a simple spot may have changed my entire feeling of the situation.

The blindness and in some cases hypocrisy of some posters who did not share my experience and were most likely not present to witness what I did to:

• With no knowledge of my complete background or history with gymnastics to assume I don't have enough knowledge or experience to tell the difference between sloppy and unsafe. Did her tuck on floor have enough amplitude for her to land on something other than her butt, no - but she had enough rotation that I was never concerned that she would tweak her neck landing on it instead... sloppy, but safe. Did her arms bend so much that her head tapped the table on all but one warm-up, but still did on both competing passes, sure did, but it wasn't hard enough that I was worried she might cause serious injury. Was her split jump on beam well under 180, you betcha, did she wobble and fall, absolutely - was I worried that she was unsafe, not at all - I've seen that kind of things so many times I can't count. What I saw for this gymnast, this day on bars was a different animal altogether. Were there other gymnasts with worse form and polish on some skills, YES, did I have a some level of fear for them, sure - did I think they were unsafe, no.
• Assume that there is no possible way that what this gymnast was doing was actually unsafe and the only reason the judges didn't say something is because they weren't there until it was time to compete - when it was too late. Side question, has anyone ever seen an optionals judge stop someone mid routine for safety concerns?
• With no knowledge of me or my history assume that just because I call out a concern about the safety of an individual performance that I look down on them or think they are undeserving or that I or DD is somehow better than them. Interestingly enough in those assumptions you actively demonstrate they very trait you imply I embody.
• Assume that just because any gymnast managed to get a 31AA on her last level that she is ready to SAFELY compete skills at the next (That is the USAG requirement for advancement as near as I can tell, not a commentary on any gymnasts score). Especially if injury or emotional distress is involved - these are the times I am MOST worried about for DD and any other gymnast - if you can't focus on something that has the potential to paralyze you then you should wait until you can focus. It isn't until the higher levels where specialization is allowed that 8.5 minimums are required. But putting a score requirement like that would thin the ranks of the sport overall way too much. This puts much more onus on parents and coaches to mindfully advance (or hold back) gymnasts to ensure safety.
• Recognize the concept of relative safety. Flinging your body around an inch and half of maple laminated fiberglass several feet off the ground is inherently unsafe even with perfect technique, plenty of training, and safety equipment. My point is that someone who is having significant struggle - regardless of the reason, is less safe - and when they actively demonstrate an inability to not only complete a skill, but to recover or exit properly, they should have some form of intervention... whether its a spot, removal of skill, or scratch. I would have the same concern if I saw this happen at a gym practice - the meet and the scoring is not the point - it was the disregard for safety regardless of venue.

But hey this is the internet, so it happens - I choose to believe that everyone here is a good person, that saw a topic that struck a nerve and they responded with open and honest feedback, I am not the kind of person who would dismiss the feelings others have about a situation - I'm not in anyone's head and won't make snap judgements. I also don't begrudge anyone their opinions and respect the ideas and possible explanations everyone has made. The world would be a boring place if we all thought the same way. It is my opinion that there is never a good reason to place someone in a potentially dangerous situation without any extra safety precautions just so they can prove something to themselves or others (unless of course its 1996 Kerri Strugg and Olympic victory is at hand ).