Coaches Difference in Cheer back handspring and gymnastics back handspring

[CoachTodd]

I've had a few kids that tried out for cheer teams that I've been working with on their back handsprings. Their cheer coach said that they were being taught "gymnastics back handsprings" and not "cheer back handsprings"
What in the world would the difference be?
One of the girls is 13 years old and nearly 6 feet tall. She takes up about 4 feet in a back handspring and her cheer coach said she was taking up too much space and " you need to arch more and go higher"
Last I checked, if a 180lb person went up really high and arched a lot, they'd come straight back down. This would put several hundred pounds of force on her hands, wrists, and elbows. The "Gymnastics way" is more of the nice rainbow shape where the weight is on its way past the hands as the body bounces. From my experience, a 6 foot person should take up anywhere from 8 to 12 feet in a back handspring (on floor) depending on exactly what she planned on doing out of it.
Any idea why cheer tumbling would be any different?

 

[gymdog]

I have no idea what the person is talking about, but as a gymnastics and cheer tumbling coach I'm inclined to think they are just inexperienced. A back handspring is a back handspring. In cheer the progressions are usually more rapid and you might sacrifice some form for progression, but I do not believe it is safe to do anything but basically the correct technique. When I'm spotting the younger ones (in cheer) on the first couple RO BHS I'll let it go a little if they're bringing their feet over a little early just to get them connecting, since I know I can hold them and it's usually easy for them to adjust (kids who already can do the standing BHS with acceptable technique). Obviously the bigger the athlete (usually lower strength/weight ratio) and less reliable your spotting is, then there needs to be more lead ups and RO jump backs, etc for the running tumbling. But for standing BHS I don't really see much excuse not to use proper technique. If they can't do a good jump back, they need to go back and work on those before the handspring.

The only other difference I can think of is that in all star cheer especially, for standing tumbling the athlete usually "steps" into the tumbling line, i.e. takes 1-3 backward steps while swinging the arms back to prepare (this would be to prepare for tumbling as hard as two backhandspring to a double full, for example - not usually just one standing BHS). So this is somewhat advanced technique and doesn't sound like what that coach is talking about, but it is possible I guess?

Edit: oh, also, usually any tumbling lands with the arms down, locked by the sides, as opposed to what we would teach in gymnastics (obviously...never that). This is for group choreography purposes in appearing uniform). However I consider that also to be something that should be emphasized not until the skill is perfected and "routine ready" and two back handsprings have already been introduced. Of course in gymnastics we tell them to get their arms up because we realize they are going to land on their heads if they do something out of it otherwise

 

[Deleted member D3987]

lol! the internal combustion engine in a ford is different than the one in a bmw. oh, wait...the aspirin in generic aspirin is different than the aspirin in bayer. oh, wait...oh, never mind. i'm laughing to hard to continue typing. lol!!

tomorrow i'll be teaching a kip to suzie on an aai low bar...and another susie on a speith low bar. wish me luck! not only are they different bars...the spelling of their names are different. woe is me...what is a coach to do.

 

[CoachTodd]

I'm with you gymdog. I've coached gymnastics for years and a few months ago I took over a cheer gym's tumbling classes. I find myself asking "who the heck said do that" a lot. They seem to be in a rush for the back handsprings but can't do good handstands. I had to go back to catching them in mid skill, putting them in the correct back handspring shape, then helping them with the snap down. This wouldn't be too hard if they were 8 and younger. I think my lightest kid is 90lbs. Most of them are well over 100lb so stopping them and shaping them can be a bit of a challenge. I need the work out anyway .

 

[peace.love.gymnast]

I get a lot of cheerleaders that have left local cheer gyms in my tumbling classes. I find that I spend half of the school year trying to break the "bad" habits in their tumbling before I can even advance them forward with other skills. Most of them have been allowed to do dangerous back handsprings @ the previous gym, & I find they can't do a proper handstand or even a bridge up. It gets frustrating b/c the kids & their parents want to know why I'm not allowing them to move forward. Well, hello....do you want your kid to break her neck?!

 

[CoachGoofy]

I sympathize.
We had a whole class of kids who wanted their backhandspring but couldn't do the shapes either (complete with parents saying they are paying me to teach a backhandspring, not a cartwheel and a handstand. Oh fun!) I don't understand the rationale behind straight up & down backhandsprings--they don't work!

 

[Deleted member D3987]

lol! you guys kill me with what you have to do. "up and down" hahahahaha....lol!

 

[CoachTodd]

Cool, it sounds like there are quite a few of you guys that run into the same things I do. Fortunately, the parents brought the kids to me since 1 someone else dropped them on their heads or 2, the think I'm the only one strong enough to spot them.

 

[gymdog]

Lots of conditioning. My standard reply to complaints about not being able to try things is to point out that in high school and college cheer, you have to compete/do skills on "hard" mat (which is just 3 inches of foam, no springs). So they need to be strong enough not to do it on a trampoline, not even a spring floor, but basically a hard floor, if they want to compete the skill at that level. Therefore: conditioning.

Of course I try to mix in a variety of skill work and change up the conditioning circuit and keep them moving (because overall fitness is often lacking). So rather than doing one thing at a time you might want to try setting up like 10 stations, most of them conditioning/shaping and some of them tumbling. I also think it's important for them to work on all kinds of tumbling (including forward) for awareness, flexibility, overall conditioning, etc.

Some ideas for independent stations related to BHS that can be worked into a circuit:
-Jump backs onto a resi or mat stack (or a big wedge mat with a softer mat on top)
-Bridge walk down the wall and back up for shoulder flex and ab strength (back to wall about a foot away, arch back to touch the wall and walk the hands down and feet out until they hit bridge on the floor...then try to walk back up to stand)
-Slight arch handstand against wall (back to wall), snap over, punch the floor and try to get back to handstand
-They should be able to do some sort of back roll to clear support without collapsing or they definitely won't be able to do a good back handspring (ideally they will be able to shoot to hollow push up in order to understand the idea of how a BHS should end - rather than pike). I have them sit in a pike on the wedge with their hands clasped and try to do straight arm pike roll or pike roll to pushup. Make a big deal about the challenge to keep straight arms while landing in a perfect pushup.
-Bridge kickover with feet elevated.

 

[10.0]

I have no clue what runs through a lot of these cheer coaches minds. In my area they never teach round offs right, but then want a ro bhs (most of the girls put their hands down straight then do this weird little bend arm twist to more them the other direction. And I had one girl insist she learn her bhs on her firsts as that is what the coach wanted.

 

[Coach.Simon]

What is the difference?
They do the "cheerleader clap" before they do their BHS....


















Bahaha
but in all seriousness, I feel everyone's pain - I have quite a few students who are in my tumbling classes for cheer...I sometimes feel that most of my tumbling/cheer classes are structured around FIXING bad habits (especially on the roundoffs, they're HIDEOUS AHHHHHHHH) instead of actually progressing towards ro-bhs...

 

[Deleted member D3987]

lol^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

[CoachTodd]

What is the difference?
They do the "cheerleader clap" before they do their BHS....


















Bahaha
but in all seriousness, I feel everyone's pain - I have quite a few students who are in my tumbling classes for cheer...I sometimes feel that most of my tumbling/cheer classes are structured around FIXING bad habits (especially on the roundoffs, they're HIDEOUS AHHHHHHHH) instead of actually progressing towards ro-bhs...

Exactly my point. I also get these kids when they're bigger than I am. Any idea how difficult it is to catch a 5'10" 170# or more kid, stop them in the correct shape, then help them with the snap down? My elbows hurt.

 

[CoachGoofy]

OMG those roundoffs! Cartwheel pikedown =/= roundoff no no no no no no no! (Sorry. Neurosis. The ew don't do that dance is a sight to behold).

Re: stopping & shaping, do you have ANY access to anything for shaping drills? Like a wall or ANYTHING? I like to train the middle part with their feet on a wall in a handstand, slightly arched (like in the middle of a backhandspring) & then have them throw their toes off the wall to a partner's hands with their abs. The middle is where I see all the "what on earth is that" crumply junk though.

Stopping them, I'm no help. I lift kids through slo mo backhandsprings and put them in the shapes I want, but that's mostly the little-medium kids. Once they hit 100 pounds or so, that gets prohibitively difficult.

 

[CoachTodd]

OMG those roundoffs! Cartwheel pikedown =/= roundoff no no no no no no no! (Sorry. Neurosis. The ew don't do that dance is a sight to behold).

Re: stopping & shaping, do you have ANY access to anything for shaping drills? Like a wall or ANYTHING? I like to train the middle part with their feet on a wall in a handstand, slightly arched (like in the middle of a backhandspring) & then have them throw their toes off the wall to a partner's hands with their abs. The middle is where I see all the "what on earth is that" crumply junk though.

Stopping them, I'm no help. I lift kids through slo mo backhandsprings and put them in the shapes I want, but that's mostly the little-medium kids. Once they hit 100 pounds or so, that gets prohibitively difficult.

For the past several months, all I had access to was a spring floor. The walls were either glass, or insulation covering sheet metal screws. I couldn't even have them do the sit until your back hits the wall drills. I'm at a new gym now since the owner of the cheer gym was hired by a gymnastics gym to run their cheer program. Now I have access to all kinds of drills once I learn what all I'm allowed to use. I've know the owners of the new gym for about 9 years so I think things will get better.
I know I'll still be fixing bad round offs and straight up and down handsprings but it will at least be nice to have a big mat to let them learn how to jump in a back handspring and barrels to round off over. I have yet to figure out a GOOD way to spot a teenaged girl's round off. It's not as weird teaching the little ones.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

For the past several months, all I had access to was a spring floor. The walls were either glass, or insulation covering sheet metal screws. I couldn't even have them do the sit until your back hits the wall drills. I'm at a new gym now since the owner of the cheer gym was hired by a gymnastics gym to run their cheer program. Now I have access to all kinds of drills once I learn what all I'm allowed to use. I've know the owners of the new gym for about 9 years so I think things will get better.
I know I'll still be fixing bad round offs and straight up and down handsprings but it will at least be nice to have a big mat to let them learn how to jump in a back handspring and barrels to round off over. I have yet to figure out a GOOD way to spot a teenaged girl's round off. It's not as weird teaching the little ones.

that right there should tell people how hard we work. and even off the job. actually thinking about how to do something that doesn't exist...LOL!

 

[CoachGoofy]

Do people spot roundoffs? I barely even spot cartwheels unless a kid just isn't getting it...we do lots and lots and LOTS of cartwheels over/around/off/through things, and then cartwheel pops and cartwheel stepins, and then at some point they accidentally do a roundoff (NOT A CARTWHEEL PIKEDOWN GAAAAAAAAAAH) & all is right with the world.

 

[CoachTodd]

Do people spot roundoffs? I barely even spot cartwheels unless a kid just isn't getting it...we do lots and lots and LOTS of cartwheels over/around/off/through things, and then cartwheel pops and cartwheel stepins, and then at some point they accidentally do a roundoff (NOT A CARTWHEEL PIKEDOWN GAAAAAAAAAAH) & all is right with the world.

I only spot the round off if they just don't get it. If they are younger, it really doesn't matter where my hands hit but I still try to use my arm just in case. It's really easy with the small ones, just like spotting a cartwheel. With the ones bigger than I am though, I usually hit them in the ribs with my forearm when I'm trying to shape the darn skill. Their cartwheels are fine. They can even do cartwheels that block as if it were a round off. For some reason, when they decide to put their feet together, the turn into Gumby and flop around like fish.

 

[Coach.Simon]

They can even do cartwheels that block as if it were a round off. For some reason, when they decide to put their feet together, they turn into Gumby and flop around like fish.

LOL

mymessageistooshort

 

[coacha]

I coach a competitive middle school cheer squad. In our town there are no cheer gyms only a gymnastic gym, so a lot of the girls I get either have no experience at all or took classes at the gymnastics gym. From a cheer coach perspective usually when I tell girls to do a cheer backhandspring instead of a gymnastics one means that they need to start with their arms down by their side and when they sit they swing back wards. We also only rebound when learning and when the skill goes into a routine we land with our arms by our sides and stand up clean. The biggest problem I have is trying to make all 28 of my girls look the same so the extra swinging, sitting timing, stand up timing is the reason for the way we do it that way. Now as for the actual bhs (the form once they sit) should be the exact same as a gymnastics bhs and I personally think if a cheer coach says thats not right then they probably just don't have a clue what they are talking about.