WAG XCEL Gold Judges, Help

[Ali'sMom]

She's only 7. The age requirements on the next level is 8 yo. That doesn't fix the problem for everyone else. It's not about "my kid" it's about "all kids"

Does your state have a higher age requirement for Level 6 and 7?
I had thought at age 7 she could be scoring out of 5 and already be competing Level 7. Or is your gym making her do Platinum before she scores out of Level 5?

 

[Rose7777]

My daughter competes Xcel bronze. She competes a cartwheel on beam because she can do it consistently and well, while others girls on her team compete a handstand or a lever (I think that's what it's called) because that's what they do consistently and well. If the harder skill means she might get a lower score, well, keep working on it and do it better. I know that would be her response- she would *never* want to go back to an easier skill just to get a better score. I don't know any gymnast who would, to be honest. They all seem to have that internal drive to get better and do harder tricks.

Oh, and the harder skill doesn't always lose to the easier ones. She won beam at her last meet.

 

[sce]

Kimkuzma, I understand you asked as on the surface it does not make sense to you. Please realize thigh that he answers you are receiving are not all to be disregarded. Try to u sweat and the purpose of accelerate before declaring it all as unfair. Also u set stand that there is more to the sport than just doing hard skills, execution is valued as well. Your dd is7yo and taking an unconventional path in this sport. You are also early in the journey. Take a step back from questioning why one of got first over another kid.

All that being said, done countries have a different system than we do and scoring is more open ended, is it better or just different? Also though, gymnastics is often less accessible to the average kid in many of those countries. So there is a give and take.

Bottom line gymnastics is a marathon though it may feel like a sprint. Pace yourself for the journey.

 

[momof2gymmies]

I have been thinking more about this today, and talked to my DD about it before school. She is a bronze. She is doing probably the hardest routines that she can as a bronze. She could be competing silver but our gym requires 2 years per level, no matter what. She had a VERY discouraging first meet. Like seriously bad. SHE did great, other kids did better. She was one of the only kids in the entire meet who did a cartwheel on beam. Everyone else did a handstand. She wobbled. Not a lot, but enough to lose a few tenths. She was the only kid in the meet to do a squat on on bars as her dismount. She was the only kid to do a full turn on floor (again with a wobble) and one of the few to do a robhs. While she did great, and beat many kids, she did not place in her age group. She is in a very tough age group. She was not upset at all. Totally shocked me. But in her words "why would I want to make my routine easier?" She fought long and hard for that back handspring. She competed it last year and it was awful - froggy legged, breath holding awful. This year she got her first 9 on floor, and it was a 9.3. She was so proud of herself. She also has a fwo cartwheel in her routine. It was suggested to her that maybe she just do bwo bwo since that is easier to connect, but there is no way she is going backwards. (Or what she thinks as going backwards. I have no idea what the normal progression is. )

DD's coaches have been great with her. She is a kid who had a very difficult time starting team. She is feisty and does not always know when to keep her mouth shut, and she is compared all the time to her older sister. Her coaches recognized that if she started feeling discouraged that her behavior might revert back to old DD, and none of us, least of all her coaches wanted that. they spent an hour with her, writing down goals that had nothing to do with winning or placing. Things like straight legs, good block, be a good team mate, smile, things like that. They told her that she had a lot of hard skills in her routines, and it was going to take time to perfect them, and as long as she worked hard and gave 100% at every practice, she would get there.

Now, take DD's bff. She has also worked long and hard on her bhs, and had it, however she landed on her head at the first meet, and is now terrified of doing it. It is great that she can still compete, and just do a backwards roll until she gets her confidence back. Out of the two girls I would say that DD's friend worked harder. She had it, she competed it, it was good, but she def got deductions. They are in the same age group. She beat DD on floor, b/c her roll was cleaner. But, she deserved to b/c she had worked just as long and just as hard. Her friend would have been sad if she lost her bhs and couldn't compete. DD would have been sad not to have her friend with her.

And DD said there is no way she would change any of her routines, unless it was to add harder stuff. Even if it meant she came in first on everything.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

It is like level 3 kids (in skill) are beating level 7 kids (in skill) by .1 or .2....... This doesn't make any sense.

She is in Xcel because she skipped lvl 1, lvl 3, Xcel gold, and will go lvl 6 or 7 next year. She is only 7. The lower levels were boring for her, and she is capable of so much more. That is why she is in Xcel where I'm seeing huge discrepancies in the validity of this sport's scoring.

OK so its unfair when a kid does a "lower" skill routine in your eyes.

But totally fair that a kid who is "near L7" compete against a kid who "near L3". It's all good except the "near L7" kid should be beating the "near L3".

You realize your gym is not using Xcel in the way that it is being sold and your kid is probably doing a lot more hours then many other Xcel teams.

If you wanted all routines to judged equally you should of went to a gym where your child competes JO compulsories, where all the routines are exactly the same. The kids up train so they are not bored and they are challenged. But at a meet they all do the exact same thing.

And then you could see exactly how your child would or would not shine based on the exact same routines. It still wouldn't be equal, but I'll leave that to the next post.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

Ok First.

Where is the justice for the kid who worked hard, stepped out of their comfort zone, and did awesome?

This is all out unfair to kids who work hard and are good.

Keep it easy... Don't step out of your comfort zone and take a risk. It doesn't pay off. Perfect the easy skills, because those are the only skills that will win a competition.

It's a terrible game. It's disappointing to hard working kids who are really good to get beat by kids with half their skill set and skill level. I couldn't support that as a coach. It's hard to watch as a parent. Reward comfort and punish good skills.

frustrating for parents to watch kids perform easy skills for the sake of winning, while marginally beating kids who are truly very talented and do bigger skills and come in just under the easy skilled score. The frustration is real and makes people want to find a more valid sport where talent and skill are rewarded- not discouraged.

You make one post perhaps you misspoke. But over multiple posts you keep insisting anyone who does what you consider lesser skills are not hard working and not as talented. A "big" skill is not all there is to gymnastics. You are dismissing the details and nuances. That is hard work, day in and day out. And if you fall you fall, it matters not if it was a cartwheel or BHS or BWO on the beam.

My daughter has been drilling and working upper level skills while competing JO and only training 9 hours per week. Other girls on her team train 12. And there are plenty of teams who train more then our girls, even Xcel teams. Oh well. She is currently L4, working her level 5,6 and some 7 skills. They are not meet ready. Their team is are not ringers. I can tell you they work their butts off. And when they go to their other season, this year IGC. They will compete the minium skills that are meet ready. And they will be uptraining things like giants .

There is a difference between doing the skill and having it meet ready. I'm pretty sure folks like Gabby and Simone, don't use meets "challenge themselves". They do that in practice and then when the move is meet ready they do it.

My coach says they teach gymnastics, not tricks

 

[dmbgymnast]

Ok First.











You make one post perhaps you misspoke. But over multiple posts you keep insisting anyone who does what you consider lesser skills are not hard working and not as talented. A "big" skill is not all there is to gymnastics. You are dismissing the details and nuances. That is hard work, day in and day out. And if you fall you fall, it matters not if it was a cartwheel or BHS or BWO on the beam.

My daughter has been drilling and working upper level skills while competing JO and only training 9 hours per week. Other girls on her team train 12. And there are plenty of teams who train more then our girls, even Xcel teams. Oh well. She is currently L4, working her level 5,6 and some 7 skills. They are not meet ready. Their team is are not ringers. I can tell you they work their butts off. And when they go to their other season, this year IGC. They will compete the minium skills that are meet ready. And they will be uptraining things like giants .

There is a difference between doing the skill and having it meet ready. I'm pretty sure folks like Gabby and Simone, don't use meets "challenge themselves". They do that in practice and then when the move is meet ready they do it.

My coach says they teach gymnastics, not tricks

This is amazing.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

Isn't 9s pretty close to precision?? I'd think so. .

No a low 9 is not anywhere close to precision. 9.8 9.9 is close to precision.

But the kid doing the big skill who earned a 9.1 obviously did something right, and their form is near flawless. The kid who did the easy routine near flawlessly for a 9.2 obviously did a great job, too, but it is MUCH easier to do a near flawless routine all made of easy skills than it is to do a near flawless routine all made of hard skills.

That's awesome! Congrats to your daughter! Not everyone can do clean routines Don't you think the skills a kid does should be leveled with a degree of difficulty so her clean beam routine with no cartwheel doesn't beat a teammate's clean beam routine with a stuck bwo? Seems awkward.

There is so much more that goes into flawless, then skill. Its called getting "tenthed to death" A misplaced foot, arm. A leap that is not high enough or at the required degrees. It all adds up. And will beat a big skill. A girl who does say a perfect BHS, yet her leaps are not as big and has sloppy feet and arms will not beat a girl who has perfect leaps, feet and arm placement but wobbles the BHS.

You think perfection is only about big skills it is not.

Overall the scoring in Xcel just doesn't make sense. I watch stellar routines full of skill earn a 9.1 or a 9.4 get beat by kids who have little skill who earn a 9.2 or a 9.5. Very confusing to see it happen.

If the "full of skill" routine was truly stellar it wouldn't have gotten the 9.1 it would of gotten the 9.2 or 9.4 or 9.5
If it was near perfect it would get a 9.750-9.950
You just don't yet know what truly stellar or perfect is.

I don't know truly stellar. Only been at this 4 years. But I can give you an example with my kid. Her Dad knows even less then me.

So last meet my kid gets low 9s on her floor. Her Dad was perplexed. He thought it was truly stellar. My kid is capable and has gotten >9.5 on her floor. This was not a truly stellar day (and she did well, no shame in a low 9). She had a slight step landing her FHS. Her BWO was just not nice (and they have been gorgeous for years, just a bad day), her timing was off just a bit. And I don't know much. I am sure the judge saw more. Add in a few moves not quite finished. There you have a low 9.

 

[Ali'sMom]

I hadn't taken offense personally, until I realized that OP would consider my Level 6, who is doing cartwheels on the beam instead of BWO & BHS and connections that some other Level 6s are doing, to be "not hard working".
And that is the furthest from the truth.

 

[Musicmama]

My dd is one who doesn't have any minumum routines (xcel Bronze) except for vault where they all do the same thing. Yes, she does get outscored sometimes by girls with more minimum routines, BUT I choose to believe that all the girls are doing their best and that the other coaches aren't out to just have their gymnasts all score the highest. They might have a different philosophy (dd's gym has the girls compete the more difficult routines as soon as they're able), which is fine, but that doesn't mean they want to cheat.

Also, I can't see what the benefit to having the gymnasts do easy (for them) routines and score as high as possible would be for a coach - especially in the long run. It seems more fun, more sporting, to me when everyone competes according to their individual level and then are able to move forward to the next meet or level with good form.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

Finally (I hope)

But wouldn't a poor score on those big skills be enough to let the coach know to try a smaller skill?

Sometimes like with profmom's child there is a bigger more long term plan. It is not about the meet, but a long term goal.

I agree and am happy we are part of a gym that encourages that. It's tough to watch other gyms who do not encourage that, though. Their focus is to win no matter what- even if it's not quite fair or valid. I'm glad our kids compete bigger skills well. It's disappointing for the athlete and frustrating for parents to watch kids perform easy skills for the sake of winning, while marginally beating kids who are truly very talented and do bigger skills and come in just under the easy skilled score. The frustration is real and makes people want to find a more valid sport where talent and skill are rewarded- not discouraged.

Tru
It's not fair to the kids who this happens to. I'm a teacher as well, so I am for fairness for all- not solely about "my kid". It's unfair across the board- my kid or someone else's kid. I'm standing up for them all

Truth!!! Winning is definitely not everything. But fairness to everyone who shows up is

She is in Xcel because she skipped lvl 1, lvl 3, Xcel gold, and will go lvl 6 or 7 next year. She is only 7. The lower levels were boring for her, and she is capable of so much more. That is why she is in Xcel where I'm seeing huge discrepancies in the validity of this sport's scoring.

Again, harping on fair over multiple posts.

First, Fair does not mean equal. And I am surprised as a teacher you would think so. Do you really think all your students need the exact same thing to succeed. Because fair means everyone getting what they need to succeed, not necessarily the exact same thing .

But of course that is what compulsories are about. Every one, every where in the country do the exact same routines. L1-L5. Yet your daughter is skipping that path. She will never ever have to do a mill circle and be judged against other kids who do a mill circle. Seen only once in Level 3 then buh bye.

The point of optionals because that is where your child is heading as is mine hopefully, is about more flexibility in skills, so they can do what they do well. And there are minimum required skills, A skills, B skills and so on. And the coach and gymmie get to pick what works best for them. But those little details, will remain the same and will make all the difference.

And if you think you are going to get equal in gymnastics as in everything equal it wont happen.

You will have kids repeating a level competing against your kid.
You will have kids training 20 hours competing against a kid training 9.
You will have a kid who spends 15 hours in a gym yet doesn't do as much as a kid doing 9 or 12 hours because the coaching and conditioning are different.
You will have kids who take dance lessons compete against kids who don't
Kids who have professional high level choreography compete against kids who don't
You will have kids who do a ton of privates competing against kids who don't do any privates.

So if you are looking for a "more equal" sport, then perhaps it is not gymnastics.

Gymnastics is much more then medals at meets.

And clearly this thread hit a nerve.

 

[Texasmomof3]

If you follow the rules of the level, it is fair. If the kid can only get a 9.1 due to execution errors, it isn't perfect or near perfect.

Such sour grapes in this thread. Yes, my dd who scores 9.7-9.8 on her floor (level 6) with a ROBHSBT and FT deserves to win over the girl doing a ROBHSBLO and FHSFT who scores 9.1 on execution. And do you know why? It is because my dd's routine is cleaner -- she has tighter, better form, higher leaps and jumps, smooth transitions and perfectly pointed toes throughout. My child can also do a LO and FHSFT combo, but they are not perfect, so she doesn't compete them. Someone who can't compete their skills properly doesn't deserve to win against someone who does.

 

[gymbeam]

not sure if op will return to this thread or not, but if you do, i did find your youtube channel and your dd is indeed a talented little girl. i suspect, though, that based on the elaborate basement gym set up including a tumble track, and your spotting skills and such, that you might be a little too invested and take the scoring a little too personally?

my final thought to leave you with is try to not sweat these scores and definitely use it as a time to teach your dd that gymnastics is not the 5 days a year spent at meets- its the other 200 days a year spent in the gym doing what she loves. my daughter is competing level 7 now and has competed in both xcel and jo. with each year and new level, it tends to shuffle the girls in terms of placement so it is good to have your dd be used to scoring and placing both high and low. it will serve her well in future. best wishes!

 

[bogwoppit]

the elaborate basement gym set up including a tumble track, and your spotting skills

This explains it all.

To the OP, it is rare that such home coaching leads to anywhere good. A home tumble track is a first for me, even after ten years on here.

My advice is to take a step back, close down the home gym and let the coaches coach. Your dd is very talented, but she lacks the form that will take her far in the sport. We have seen far too many really talented little ones like her have their gym careers stalled by over zealous home coaching. When you reinforce bad form over and over again it sticks. When you reinforce great form over and over again it sticks too.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

^^^^^ exactly what my thoughts were. I wish I could like it a bunch of times.

Well that explains that.

 

[needcoffee]

I have come to realise that competition isn't all that "fair".

Low hour gyms vs high hour gyms.
Injuries.
Repeaters.
Age groups.
Cut off dates for age groups (if my DD was doing L5 this year, she'd be in a completely different age group than her friend who is only 14 days younger than her).
Awards for kids who scored lower than your kid, just happens to be a couple of months older.
Session times (my DD was barely awake for her 7.30am states).
Etc etc etc.

It is what it is. It's never going to be fair across the board.

 

[momof2gymmies]

I have come to realise that competition isn't all that "fair".

Low hour gyms vs high hour gyms.
Injuries.
Repeaters.
Age groups.
Cut off dates for age groups (if my DD was doing L5 this year, she'd be in a completely different age group than her friend who is only 14 days younger than her).
Awards for kids who scored lower than your kid, just happens to be a couple of months older.
Session times (my DD was barely awake for her 7.30am states).
Etc etc etc.

It is what it is. It's never going to be fair across the board.

Could not be more true. At DD's first meet she didn't place on anything. zip,zero, nada. However, she beat the other two first place winners in the other age groups. One of whom was a week younger than her. So if she had been born 8 days later, she would have come in first. Instead she did not place. But, it is what it is, and it lit a fire under her t o ensure that it does not happen that way again.

 

[rjb123]

I really don't have any experience with the Xcel program. However, I can tell you that if you are looking for fair, you are in the wrong sport. There is nothing fair about it. It just is what it is. And meets will be good, bad, and indifferent over the years. You will never understand the judging, and frankly at this point in my daughter's career I need a translator to tell me what she is doing skill wise anymore! I am not trying to be harsh, just telling you that you need to let it go. Love your daughter, tell her how proud of her you are and let. it. go. Your mental health will improve immensely- I promise you that!

 

[cadybearsmommy]

This explains it all.

To the OP, it is rare that such home coaching leads to anywhere good. A home tumble track is a first for me, even after ten years on here.

My advice is to take a step back, close down the home gym and let the coaches coach. Your dd is very talented, but she lacks the form that will take her far in the sport. We have seen far too many really talented little ones like her have their gym careers stalled by over zealous home coaching. When you reinforce bad form over and over again it sticks. When you reinforce great form over and over again it sticks too.

Agree 100% with everything said here. And I hope I'm wrong but is that tumble track next to a concrete wall??

 

[Flyaway]

not sure if op will return to this thread or not, but if you do, i did find your youtube channel and your dd is indeed a talented little girl. i suspect, though, that based on the elaborate basement gym set up including a tumble track, and your spotting skills and such, that you might be a little too invested and take the scoring a little too personally?

This explains the entire thread. And that YouTube was super easy to find. . I do wish your dd the best OP, but please listen to the wisdom in this thread.