Advice for gymnast from small gym

[shelovestoflip]

Kind of dumb question...sorry...but just to clarify for myself...the pits are the foam pits with the foam squares, right?

So, girls can do bars, vault or tumble track into the pit? Rings for boys?

I'm thinking a pit is a good thing if they are practicing some skill and can't imagine where they would practice the skill otherwise.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

yes. those are called loose foam pits. then there are resi pits. these are specially constructed to look like lattice. they are enclosed in a special enclosure constructed with breathable material and vents. these are then placed in to the hole in the ground.

and then there are air bladders. these are specially constructed inflatable devices that are placed in the holes. they have specially constructed tops made out of carpet bonded foams. they have fans that are built in to the walls of the pit to keep the air pressure constant. these are the sweetest devices i have ever had the pleasure of seeing and using. there are none currently in the USA. they are in europe. and i believe one day everyone will have them here when they become less cost prohibitive as they are now.

 

[MaryA]

they have fans that are built in to the walls of the pit to keep the air pressure constant. .

Like the Disney Princess Bouncy Castle that my in-laws bought my twins for their 4th birthday? They don't use it anymore... maybe with a few slight modifications...

 

[Deleted member D3987]

hahahahaha ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ maybe...

 

[gym_fun]

All very good information... thank you! My daughter just moved to level 7 and this was a huge concern. This may sound funny...my daughter is very atheletic and has options in other sports but gym is very time consuming. So do I slowly pull back on gym so she can focus on other sports since really it doesnt sound like she will be able to compete at the same level as other gymnast from other gyms??? Her heart is truly with gymnastics but if she is limited by her gym and the option to move is not there, maybe focusing on another sport might be better. Sad really... she is truly talented in gymnastics.

 

[bookworm]

All very good information... thank you! My daughter just moved to level 7 and this was a huge concern. This may sound funny...my daughter is very atheletic and has options in other sports but gym is very time consuming. So do I slowly pull back on gym so she can focus on other sports since really it doesnt sound like she will be able to compete at the same level as other gymnast from other gyms??? Her heart is truly with gymnastics but if she is limited by her gym and the option to move is not there, maybe focusing on another sport might be better. Sad really... she is truly talented in gymnastics.

It is kind of sad but if she has talent in other sports and moving to a different gym with pits is out of the question, then I would start to focus on the other sports...my daughter had a friend who also loved gymnastics and was decent but her mom saw that she had talent in other sports that might be more fulfilling so she just ended her gymnastics one day by saying "it just wasn't in the cards for you to continue"...and they moved on to other sports...she didn't continue to dangle the gymnastics in front of her, they made the decision and were done with it. Was the kid disappointed? Yes but fast forward 6-7 years and she is the state champion in track and all state in basketball and softball and being recruited for these other sports by top D1 schools!! so leaving gymnastics in and of itself is not a bad thing, life does go on and kids can be successful in other sports....If the OP's daughter is still pretty young, then I would move on to the other sports....

 

[gymluvr33]

pits of some kind are the norm and the standard. and in furtherance of my point, everyone that comes from a gym with no pit whatsoever should post up. i don't know how to put up one of those poll surveys. maybe someone else that knows how can do that.

In answer to that, our gym does not have a pit, but the optionals travel to a gym 30-45 minutes away twice a month to use their pit. They have a vault, tumble track, and single rail set up into the pit. I am now a level 8, hoping to go level 9, and we didn't start going to the gym until I was moving up to level 8. Before that my coach took a few of out top gymnasts (Level 9 and 10, maybe a couple level 8s, I'm not sure) once a month I believe. But that was before I was an optional gymnast so I'm not sure of all the details for that. I will try to make a poll, but I'm not really sure how to do that either

 

[All Chalked Up]

Definitely! Our gym doesn't even have a full sized floor or a tumble track and we have had 1 male artistic gymnast go to Worlds, a couple female artistic gymnasts got to Nationals and a couple T&T's went to Nationals.

 

[ryantroop]

My mistake Dunno. Foot->mouth

I made her a year older

Check out Jr A lv 9.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

there were 15 level 9 junior a's in the illinois state meet. all of them have pits. so i'm not sure who/what you're speaking about. at regionals there were no level 9 "junior a's". they were called junior 1's & 2's and so forth. and 2 of the gyms are who i mentioned in the earlier post.

 

[ryantroop]

2011 Jr Olympic National Championships - Meet Results

LSA does not have a foam pit.

And, shame on me for finding it initially on my phone. It was Level 10.

 

[ryantroop]

Let me be clear, we do not have a loose foam pit. However, we do have resi-pits (or, commonly referred to as porta-pits).

I agree, that they do make a safer environment, however stacking 8" mats (depending on build and material) can duplicate the effects of a porta-pit, if combined with good spotting and proper progressions.

Again, I assert my statement - look at the coaching. If the equipment is falling apart and exposed floor (concrete, wood, etc..) is near an aparatus, then I would speak up and be concerned.

For lower level skills (such as compulsories, and even through level 8, to some extent), a loose-foam pit is not required, but more of a luxury. At level 9, a pit becomes a very useful tool, but it is not the only one. Given the chance, I would take a facility with a pit over one without, but as stated above - there is a learning curve for pits, too. They are hard to get out of, and if kids land wrong they can hurt themselves as much as landing wrong on a hard floor (or worse, due to whip-lash, chest first entries, head first entries, etc..). Pits are not a "catch-all" they are a "catch-most."

 

[gymdog]

yes. those are called loose foam pits. then there are resi pits. these are specially constructed to look like lattice. they are enclosed in a special enclosure constructed with breathable material and vents. these are then placed in to the hole in the ground.

and then there are air bladders. these are specially constructed inflatable devices that are placed in the holes. they have specially constructed tops made out of carpet bonded foams. they have fans that are built in to the walls of the pit to keep the air pressure constant. these are the sweetest devices i have ever had the pleasure of seeing and using. there are none currently in the USA. they are in europe. and i believe one day everyone will have them here when they become less cost prohibitive as they are now.

I'm so extremely jealous whenever I see videos of gymnastics in Europe. I just want to like roll around on one of those.

Personally, I don't think the effects of a resi can be mimicked by a stack of 8 inchers at all. First of all there is the issue of height, since resi "pits" are in ground (not to be confused with resi mats that move around such as the level 4 vault mat). Basically you are not going to learn a double back up to a three or four foot stack of mats.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

Let me be clear, we do not have a loose foam pit. However, we do have resi-pits (or, commonly referred to as porta-pits).

I agree, that they do make a safer environment, however stacking 8" mats (depending on build and material) can duplicate the effects of a porta-pit, if combined with good spotting and proper progressions.

Again, I assert my statement - look at the coaching. If the equipment is falling apart and exposed floor (concrete, wood, etc..) is near an aparatus, then I would speak up and be concerned.

For lower level skills (such as compulsories, and even through level 8, to some extent), a loose-foam pit is not required, but more of a luxury. At level 9, a pit becomes a very useful tool, but it is not the only one. Given the chance, I would take a facility with a pit over one without, but as stated above - there is a learning curve for pits, too. They are hard to get out of, and if kids land wrong they can hurt themselves as much as landing wrong on a hard floor (or worse, due to whip-lash, chest first entries, head first entries, etc..). Pits are not a "catch-all" they are a "catch-most."

ryantroop...i know the owner d.r. and i know the coach and her daughter. and they do the very best that they can with what they have to work with. without using names, the head coach is fantastic and has told me personally that she is limited as to what she can teach BECAUSE she is without some of the training devices that she knows exists and that includes pits. do you think that it is a coincidence that she doesn't have lots of double backs and toe fronts as dismounts off bars? "I" is completely capable of teaching double backs on floor and other dismounts from bars. and would you not agree that "A" would be able to do more with the boys if he had access to pits? come on now...

pits are not at all as you characterize them. the risks that you describe above are known and mitigated thru proper instruction. pits are no more dangerous than the activity itself. anything done in the name of gymnastics in an uncontrolled or unsupervised environment is what leads to unecessary injury. and those 2 prongs coupled with lack of coaching education is a recipe for disaster.

"I agree, that they do make a safer environment, however stacking 8" mats (depending on build and material) can duplicate the effects of a porta-pit, if combined with good spotting and proper progressions."

the above quote is wrong and wrong minded. it is NOT possible to duplicate the effects of a porta pit by stacking 8' inch mats. may i remind you that other coaches, and those that may be younger and inexperienced, read things like this and accept them as gospel. and then kids get hurt at their hands. i will not argue the efficacy of good spotting and proper progressions. those are the hallmark of any good gymnastics program. stacking 8" mats have a use in training, and likewise, are not a catch all or catch most. and porta pits and resi-pits are 2 different animals. they are NOT the same thing. again, this could lead others to more confusion.

and in 1 breath you state that pits are a luxury. in another you state that you would choose a facility with one over one that does not. this is not consistent. then you suggest that pits have a diminishing learning curve. this is wrong and wrong minded yet again. it is the ATHLETES themselves where their learning curves are dictated and controlled not only by physics but that of their own biology. the pits have nothing to do with it. again, i don't want other coaches who are learning this sport misled.

Some of these issues can be debated...but some are written in the stone of gymnastics training. my opinions are fact based and i want the best and most accurate information disseminated to a site like this BECAUSE of the people that read here. credible information attracts credible members.

 

[ryantroop]

You are correct in saying we have limited resources, but the fact remains the same - without a pit, we still have a gymnast of that caliber.

Please read the post carefully, I said dependent on the make and material of the mats.

I grew up in a gym without a pit. I work in a gym without a pit. and I stand by my statement - they are a luxury. Much like a Car, people would like own one, but it is not necessary.

Further, you point out the dismounts and skills used for our athletes - sounds like responsible, creative, and knowledgable coaching.

And thank you for supporting my argument that pits are equally as dangerous as the sport with an inexperienced coach. Again, Dunno, you and I seem to be on the same page but arguing about it. I will never take risks with my gymnasts. I make every effort to prevent injury, Whenever possible.

Now, if you want to debate this more, I suggest messaging me until we come to a resolution. This seems to be getting a bit personal. And with as much as I contribute, help, and participate here, and drive meaningful and what people have regarded as helpful responses, I take offense to you inferring I am not credible. I don't claim to know everything, but I can certainly stand proud knowing I teach sound basics and development.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

i'm done with this topic. everyone please glean from it what you will. suffice, this gym has had 1 gymnast qualify to level 10 nationals in its 30 year existence. this same athlete qualified to level 9 nationals last year. geesh.

 

[ryantroop]

Wow Dunno, ad hominem as your final hurrah? I don't suppose I could expect more from you.

Oh, and for the record, I only started coaching here at LSA a year and a half ago. Before that I was hekping gymnasts be state, state final, and national team members through IHSA. Obviously, I have no credibility.

Its easy to hide behind anonymity and put others down.

For someone who speaks like an adult you sure act like a child.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

actually, i thought i was being ad rem. and to continue further was to my risk of being ad infinitum and to the peril of others here feeling ad nauseum now i'm ad finem.

 

[Muddlethru]

people should be careful about what they say when they don't give specifics...level 10 5th place all around? level 10 regionals?? top 7 puts you on the regional team to nationals...where? and national gymnasts? in illinois?? no pits??? there was not 1 level 10 from illinois who qualified to level 10 nationals whose gyms do not have pits. and i am aware of another gym who has a resi, and they have to move the vault table there in order to practice vaults. this gym also has a pit that's covered and not used. this gym did have a girl qualify to easterns.

modern day gymnastics can not be taught without some kind of pits whether they are above ground or in ground. it's just not feasible.

and looking at gyms in illinois...there is 1 gym in southern illinois down near st. louis. they had no pits when they moved in their new space a couple of years ago. my understanding is that they now have pits. their old gym DID have pits. now, they had a girl take 5th at the illinois state meet. and most of her training took place at the old gym with pits.

and there is 1 more who also had a girl take 5th in another age group. there was a time quite awhile ago when they did not have pits. but they went to another nearby gym to use theirs. and they now have pits also.

then looking at level 10 region 5 regional results. EVERY gymnast in a 5th place spot comes from a gym with pits.

then looking at level 9 region 5 results. every gymnast in a 5th place spot come from a gym with pits with the exception of the gym in southern illinois that i may have misunderstood that they had finally put pits in.

i hate being anal about this. i just don't want anyone being misled that modern day gymnastics can be practiced without some kind of pit. it is unsafe for the athlete AND the coach. it is irrelevant how good a coach might be. coaches have a 'shelf life'. and it would be even shorter without pits.

pits of some kind are the norm and the standard. and in furtherance of my point, everyone that comes from a gym with no pit whatsoever should post up. i don't know how to put up one of those poll surveys. maybe someone else that knows how can do that.

O.k., my DD's gym has no pits. All we have mats stacked on top of each other. When practicing new skills, the girls use the tumble track and land on stacked matts. We have a girl that qualified for junior international elite in 2006 and our one level 9 won 1st AA in Region 6 in her session (1st on vault, floor and beam)and placed 10th at Eastern Nationals this year. We currently have an aspiring senior elite. My DD is now a level 8. She learned her fulls and her L8 skills without a pit. I always wondered about the lack of updated equipment at our gym. That is why last year, I posted a similar question on chalkbucket. At that time, Dunno you said there are ways around not having a pit and that it is not a necessity. Since I do value your input, I dismissed that concern, After reading this thread, I am again concerned about how far my DD can go if she stayed at this gym. Just to confirm, will she be at a disadvantage if her gym is lacking in updated equipment, pits, etc. Her gym has thread bare trampolines. No improvements have been made to our gym in at least 10 years.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

O.k., my DD's gym has no pits. All we have mats stacked on top of each other. When practicing new skills, the girls use the tumble track and land on stacked matts. We have a girl that qualified for junior international elite in 2006 and our one level 9 won 1st AA in Region 6 in her session (1st on vault, floor and beam)and placed 10th at Eastern Nationals this year. We currently have an aspiring senior elite. My DD is now a level 8. She learned her fulls and her L8 skills without a pit. I always wondered about the lack of updated equipment at our gym. That is why last year, I posted a similar question on chalkbucket. At that time, Dunno you said there are ways around not having a pit and that it is not a necessity. Since I do value your input, I dismissed that concern, After reading this thread, I am again concerned about how far my DD can go if she stayed at this gym. Just to confirm, will she be at a disadvantage if her gym is lacking in updated equipment, pits, etc. Her gym has thread bare trampolines. No improvements have been made to our gym in at least 10 years.

i can't read/find what i stated at that time in its context. and i do know that the above is true. but at some point in training, you must have some kind of pits. there are just some things that are either to unsafe to teach or to precarious to spot without the aid of a training pit. and then there is shelf life. for both the athlete and coach.

and more importantly, when the athletes get to that point in the season when they throw full routines, and they make mistakes, and they DO make mistakes, i think everyone would agree that high level skills should be missed over resi's or pits with mats placed on top.

and when you speak of repetitions...you just can't train near 50 double backs a week and land on hard surface. you can't train near 50 yurchenko fulls a week and land on hard surface. you can't train near 50 double layouts on floor or off bars on to a hard surface. you can't train 30-50 double backs off beam a week on to a hard surface.

to simplify, there has to be a reasonable mixture of soft landings and hard landings. and you just can't learn some of the difficulty that can be learned relatively easy and over time with good coaching and drills if you don't have access to some kind of pits.

finally, it is a good practice to make improvements to your gym, whatever improvements those might be, on a yearly basis. and understand from an owners perspective, and the sometime consensus that we are rich (which we are not), that it costs an exhorbitant amount of money to do what we do. so much so that the owner sometimes see no end in sight.

i won't say teaching gymnastics without pits and training devices can't be done. it becomes a matter as to what expense or sacrifice in attempting to reach a higher level of learning and safety. that is all.