Casts

[traceyd1]

My level 1 gymnasts have very archy backs in casts. I know this is partially due to confidence (i.e. they don't want to get too far from the bar) and also due to strength. We've been doing conditioning and of course casting and spotting holds, and will continue to do so. But I was wondering if anyone has some great drills or tips for gymnasts starting out, to help them nail their casts, (and for that matter their core control on glides and even vaulting). I'm interested in conditiong drills to help build core strength for control as well as bar specific drills. And drills that encourage 'snapping' to the correct position.

 

[Geoffrey Taucer]

I have been known to argue about casts for hours. Here is my opinion, though I am well aware that it puts me in the minority among women's coaches:

They're arching? Good, as long as it's a tight, controlled arch. An arched-back cast provides a greater range of motion through which force can be applied and decreases the swing radius in the ascent phase, making an arched-back cast more efficient than a hollow or straight cast. In my opinion, the best way to train a cast is for it to be arched until the gymnast can hit a handstand; at this point, the gymnast should attempt to transition to a straight or hollow position just as she hits the top.

This technique is readily visible in nearly every elite gymnast who competes a legs-together cast to handstand -- in fact, Shawn Johnson is quite literally the only elite I've been able to find who does not arch in the ascent of a legs-together cast to handstand. Nastia arches, Kexin (and the whole chinese national team, for that matter) arches, Weiber arches, Bross arches, etc.

 

[nevertooold]

Hands on floor bar, toes on box.
Hands on floor, toes on mat stack.
Anything that replicates the top of the cast postion and have them hold it. Or replicates top of cast position 30 degrees higher than your expectation.
Hollow holds/rock
2 panel mats lift and hold (shoulders on one, heels on the other, lift torso and hold)

 

[traceyd1]

Interesting, haven't heard that before. Obviously one for debate.However, in the little girls cases, I think it's more about lack of body control and wanting to keep that stomach close to the bar for security Thanks for your reply.

 

[ryantroop]

@GT

I know your point of view.. but let's take it a step further.. The ultimate goal of a cast is a hollow shape for giants.

Developmentally, the drilling of the hollow shape is designed to maintain that body shape through motion. Yes, you need to pass through the arch phase to cast up. However, for any skill out of the cast (a non-skill, mind you, and if you think of it, it's technically a free swing), a hollow shape needs to be re-enforced. Be it a free-hip, front giant, back giant, or a release move, a hollow is the foundation for almost all elements that come from a cast.

For young girls, some skills need to be "made up" to accomodate for their lack of development. That's why glides are an element at level 4 (kip) and front hip circles (be it for a weiler or just learning to get yourself away from the bar while circling)... A cast to hollow is a good benchmark to see how well a child is progressing towards a future skill, as well as giving them a current goal that is credited and merited.

Your argument is valid. It's an archy skill. However, it also separates a good gymnast from a great one. Our sport is, partially, based in aestetics. A straight body cast is, by all means, more pleasing to the eye than an archy one. It also makes for an easier transition towards future skills.

Again, this is just one opinion...


@Tracy -

Break down the motion for them, and work on static holds. Help them feel confident in the positions you want them to pass and work through. It's like any other skill. Break it down to its root components, and they will understand what it feels like before ever actually attempting. They need to feel the little successes before feeling the whole. The suggestions above are great examples!

Good luck

 

[Pineapple_Lump]

Have them stand on a large block so the bar is at their hip to chest level. Have them jump to the bar (straight arms) and cast back to stand. First focus on getting them to lean over the bar and pull feet under 'nose over your toes' you may need to support them for this position at first to get the idea. They can do many of these in a row.
The above works well for me as the children quickly develop the confidence, spotting them into the right shape/height always took much longer in my experience. I like a straight/tight arch shape. Closer to competitions we round the back at the peak of the cast to keep judges happy. My gymnasts seem to manage the difference in technique.

 

[CoachTodd]

If you really want to focus on the shapes, spot a billion casts. It is possible to cast in a hollow body just more difficult.
I tend not to coach toward the compulsory rules since the rules at the option levels are different.

They may simply be trying too hard. When you spot their casts, make sure you are holding their shoulders over the bar so they get the idea of where the control in their casts comes from.

 

[Stretchsportguy]

Depending on their age, this is fun. They get on their hands and knees. The coach barks in a deep hollow voice like a mammoth dog. When he emits his thunder the kids have to arch up like a cat as high as they can like they are scared out of their cat hides. They have to bury their heads between their arms to protect their ears when they arch up like a frightened cat.

Later they transfer this to the bar and have fun casting up and the coach barks like a mad hair brained mastiff every time they cast.

 

[bogwoppit]

Depending on their age, this is fun. They get on their hands and knees. The coach barks in a deep hollow voice like a mammoth dog. When he emits his thunder the kids have to arch up like a cat as high as they can like they are scared out of their cat hides. They have to bury their heads between their arms to protect their ears when they arch up like a frightened cat.

Later they transfer this to the bar and have fun casting up and the coach barks like a mad hair brained mastiff every time they cast.

What on Earth does that mean????

 

[Stretchsportguy]

Which of those 101 words are you asking about, bogwoppit? Are there no cats in Canada? Have you never seen male cats courting?

The late Tim Rand was very animated with the little ones and had no reservations about role playing in order to help them understand what to do and keep the workouts so entertaining that fear would never enter their minds.

In kung fu they often use animal imitations to express the different stances and Kata's with the little ones. Animal behaviors are something kids can visualize and have fun imitating. Watch my videos on youtube with Julio Anta and see. Google me.

In gymnastics, instructors often use references to elephants to do elephant walking, or crabs for variations of crab walks, or frogs to cue frog jumps, or horse gallops to do sashays or hurdles.

Of course if you can't relate to animals and the way they move and act then a skill described in terms of the way an animal moves or acts will be meaningless.

A cat when it is frightened will hunch up its back worse than the hunchback from Notre Dame. Cats by nature are threatened by dogs. Using the role playing described, just add hiding your ears between the arms and you should get a pretty good cast out of even the most defensive little one.

A little one is a term for "young child".

The author of this thread is looking for snap. This scenario should produce what traceyd1 is looking for in her kids.

 

[nevertooold]

Are there no cats in Canada? Have you never seen male cats courting?

In kung fu they often use animal imitations to express the different stances and Kata's with the little ones. Animal behaviors are something kids can visualize and have fun imitating. Watch my videos on youtube with Julio Anta and see. Google me.

Of course if you can't relate to animals and the way they move and act then a skill described in terms of the way an animal moves or acts will be meaningless.

Hmm...

Stretch -- I was one who really gave you the benefit of the doubt on the elite training for 6 yr olds thread but this post is just weird.

And your referencing animal mating is just awkward, no respectable coach would talk to young kids like that.

And I did look at your youtubes... ALL MARTIAL ARTS. NO GYMNASTICS. so, uh, huh???

 

[bogwoppit]

Which of those 101 words are you asking about, bogwoppit? Are there no cats in Canada? Have you never seen male cats courting?

The late Tim Rand was very animated with the little ones and had no reservations about role playing in order to help them understand what to do and keep the workouts so entertaining that fear would never enter their minds.

In kung fu they often use animal imitations to express the different stances and Kata's with the little ones. Animal behaviors are something kids can visualize and have fun imitating. Watch my videos on youtube with Julio Anta and see. Google me.

In gymnastics, instructors often use references to elephants to do elephant walking, or crabs for variations of crab walks, or frogs to cue frog jumps, or horse gallops to do sashays or hurdles.

Of course if you can't relate to animals and the way they move and act then a skill described in terms of the way an animal moves or acts will be meaningless.

A cat when it is frightened will hunch up its back worse than the hunchback from Notre Dame. Cats by nature are threatened by dogs. Using the role playing described, just add hiding your ears between the arms and you should get a pretty good cast out of even the most defensive little one.

A little one is a term for "young child".

The author of this thread is looking for snap. This scenario should produce what traceyd1 is looking for in her kids.

I would be careful being sarcastic with me! Quite frankly I find your posts really irritating and not remotely useful.

You have been warned.

 

[Linsul]

I don't coach optional level bars, so I have a question that may be dumb. Gonna ask anyway! I do see archy casts to handstands, I'm wondering how much that has to do with types of giants being trained. The girls training reverse grip giants have a more pronounced arch to handstand than the ones that don't. Is that tight controlled arch being carried over from reverse grip giants I wonder? Am I way off for even seeing a connection there?

 

[gymdog]

I don't know, most of the older girls do straddle up to handstand, and also straddle up to handstand in front giant. If they are doing legs together for both, then they are probably pretty strong or small but doing a (relatively) straight body handstand up on either is pretty difficult so they may arch a fair amount to get it over.

As far as the cat thing, that post was oddly worded but the suggestion isn't too far off. I don't make a game of it but having them practice on the floor to go from flat to rounded back is indeed helpful. The point to me is to try and have the girls when they can do straight/tight arch up but then round their shoulders as they come down which will be correct to go into the skills. I understand the point about cast handstand however we need to keep in mind the potential for injury which I believe is greater if they are arching and not strong enough (usually the case) as they could overstress their back, pull a muscle, or get hurt if they lean too far and then land on the bar on their stomach. So we need to correct this in my opinion until they are advanced enough to do otherwise. It is good to teach a straight shape to quick rounded shoulders. Personally I believe this is acceptable technique.

The other issue is the conversion into the appropriate position for the skill coming out of the cast. If a kid did a cast handstand into a giant, it is not acceptable technique to stay in the arch and then arch down belly first (although I see a lot of horrific technique like this too. It makes me want to cry. Again. Injury potential first and foremost, then the fact it is not technically correct). If the kids are doing cast with their belly sagging, most likely the next skill will not be done well, if made at all (usually BHC). They will fall off the bar, because at the beginning stages as they learn the back circle they need to come back to the bar with the feet leading. When they arch they will either throw their head back or come back to the bar with the feet behind them and then they will be unable to do the skill quickly enough. So this is a problem. At the early stages it may be easier and progressively more useful to train a "hollow" cast for kids who are not imminently looking to move up. If they can hold a good shape finishing in horizontal, they can learn quite a bit with that, and even move to learn straddle cast handstand. However with kids who are on the team track I would focus on straight body drive then a quick rounding of the shoulders.

 

[traceyd1]

Sounds hilarious and just the sort f thing I would do!

Depending on their age, this is fun. They get on their hands and knees. The coach barks in a deep hollow voice like a mammoth dog. When he emits his thunder the kids have to arch up like a cat as high as they can like they are scared out of their cat hides. They have to bury their heads between their arms to protect their ears when they arch up like a frightened cat.

Later they transfer this to the bar and have fun casting up and the coach barks like a mad hair brained mastiff every time they cast.

Sounds hilarious and just the sort of thing I would do!
That is.... joking with the girls re being a dog scaring them into what we do actually call the 'angry cat' position. In saying that, the next thing is ensuring no pike/closed hips, which is reinforced in the kneeling!! Anyway....Thanks all for the great suggestions. Tried the one where jumping from box to cast and back (nose to toes) very helpful, plenty of casts being spotted, also made one up....--> Used wall bar across two boxxes. Got the girls to bounce their feet on a mini tramp up to high casts, drew face on floor in front of bar and encouraged the leaning forward. All in all, still a long way to go, but some are getting it.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

tim rand would be angry that his name and teaching were taken out of context or that his name used at all were he not around to defend or discuss a position...you just insulted a deceased friend!