Coaches Controlling back fulls

[peace.love.gymnast]

Something similar to this may be posted on here but I couldn't find it...
I have a 9 yr old that is doing fulls out of her RO BHS. The problem is that she keeps over rotating. When she's on floor ( I slightly spot her) she always does a 1 1/2...when on the air track she does a double full. I want her to be able to control 1 rotation on her own before really working doubles. She's a very powerful and fearless tumbler so I don't want to hold her back, but I want her to make correct progressions into skills. Can anyone give me some helpful tips or drills on what to have her do to slow it down a bit? I've tried several things but none seem to work. Thanks.

 

[hawaii_gymnast]

I am just a rec assistant coach, but also a gymnast. And i would say try and have her do it for a power hurdle or a few steps until she learns how to control it better. And also make sure she is not pulling her arms in super hard and tight, to make full she might only have to pull one arm, then pull both for doubles.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

raise the floor to that it comes to her sooner. stack mats up. keep going until she 'find' herself. then peel away one mat at a time over a period of time and she'll end up 'controlling' or finding herself.

 

[ryantroop]

Gotta echo Dunno, here. What you're seeing as power, I see as lost. She's wrapping super hard because she can't follow what's going on.

Go back to basics. Flip-flop 1/2 turns to her back, layouts to her back, then full to her feet. Make sure she can see her toes on the progressions as a visual marker, and she will see the floor to stop.

 

[triptwister]

Teach this gymnast a barani. Then teach this gymnast a half turn into a barani. Teach this gymnast a half twist pike flip to barani. Or half twist layout to barani.
Go ahead and let this gymnast learn the double full. Embrace the advantage. Make the full and the double full be like two different skills.
Then move on to triple full.
This kid has it so let her fly.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

let her fly to her face? when she doesn't know where the floor is?? geesh...

 

[peace.love.gymnast]

Thanks for the tips dunno and ryantroop. We had class last night and worked with some of your suggestions. It seemed to help a little bit. I'm sure the more we work them, it will get even better. I did find out that mom and dad are letting this child practice on her trampoline!!!! What are they thinking!! It's no wonder everytime I try to correct her she makes slow progress. Anyway, thanks again...I will continue to use these drills as they were very helpful.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

you're more than welcome. and tell those parents to get their kid off the backyard trampoline for me.

 

[triptwister]

Dunno, you presume this gymnast does not know where she is. This may or may not be true. I have seen kids spin and accidentally go past the full but they know where they are. They land aware. That said: There is a reason I suggested the barani style of teaching a full. I ignored the contingency of spatial disorientation. A barani by nature assures you are not lost because you spot the floor. This is the reason I suggested this teaching style.

There are many styles of teaching fulls, dunno. I have posted some examples in other threads. For a right full for example: the driving a car style...steer (turn the wheel) to the right on take off and spot the floor then turn the wheel to the left as you go over.

Metaphorically speaking how about the throw a sack of potatoes over your shoulder style? ...arms up on take-off, then drop the arms down to chest level and from there throw a sack of potatoes over your right shoulder and watch the bag go over your shoulder placing chin to shoulder.

How about the late twisting style of teaching a full? On this you watch the floor and turn out just before you land. Or wrap at the end but be careful of straight leg landings which can hurt knees.

geesh dunno... if you won't pick up a quarter for a double full but a penny venerates you then what would you tell a level 6 kid who accidentally keeps going to a handstand on her free hip?

geesh dunno... if they want to upgrade your car rental from economy to luxury for free then why would you insist on a Chevy Aveo?

geesh dunno... if you can go to college on a scholarship then why would you insist on financial aid with loans?

geesh dunno...an elite coach should not settle for a ride on a bus or cheap airplane and buy an expensive handbag they can't afford if they can catch a free limo courtesy of Coach Handbags to visit their factory and pick a complementary bag of your choice.

Are we there yet?

 

[bogwoppit]

Trip watch your tone please, take this as a warning.

 

[Geoffrey Taucer]

One other thing you might try: having her work her 1/1 with her arms wider. I had a similar problem for awhile; after learning my 3/2 and 2/1, I had trouble going back down to 1/1s. What helped with me was trying to do the 1/1 with my arms out wider to slow the turn, rather than wrapping it.

I like to teach a 1/1 as a slow, liesurely turn; there really isn't anything fast or aggressive about it. It should be slow, floaty, and liesurely, and when you get it right it's actually much easier to control than a layout that doesn't twist.

 

[triptwister]

I'm sorry about the tone, bogwoppit. I was kidding around with dunno and flirting with his sense of humor. I made him laugh recently and hope to do it again.

Usually over-twisting back flipping skills lands them on their back. Not their face. Especially when practiced on the trampoline. Usually a complaint of power means overkill. peace.love.gymnast did not expand on some of these details.

I chose the barani as mentioned for a teaching method to assure that this gymnast would indeed know where the floor is and would also arrest the over-spin dilemma. dunno failed to perceive my insight.

Again, I apologize for my tone which obviously did not achieve the humor I sought.

 

[Geoffrey Taucer]

I chose the barani as mentioned for a teaching method to assure that this gymnast would indeed know where the floor is and would also arrest the over-spin dilemma.

Agreed: a barani is an excellent drill for teaching aerial awareness. I think there's a common tendency among coaches to teach a back 1/2 or 1/1 as a gymnast's first twisting skill, but in my opinion gymnasts are better off learning a front 1/2 as soon as reasonably possible (not necessarily on floor, but at least on a trampoline or from springboard/tumbletrack to resi), as it teaches gymnasts to spot the ground and adjust accordingly. I'd say a barani is the single most important skill for learning aerial awareness.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

she originally posted that the athlete was over-rotating with a light spot and doing a 1 1/2 twist. this means potential for over-rotating to the face.

not spotting and raising the floor by stacking mats cures this problem. once they begin landing the coach can then start peeling the mats away back to floor level. this method is called "uphill" tumbling.

and i couldn't really respond to trip's post. "steer the wheel right on take off and steer left" at the end. in fact, this would make the athlete execute a right twist in and fake out meaning that a full did not take place.

arabian tuck front 1/2 out, or barani out out of the tuck front is a good method. works well if the athlete performs right round off to right twist. as coaches you well know that they don't always do it this way.

the one thing that is universally understood and practiced is that the front twist and back twist should be the same direction.

 

[triptwister]

Nice try, dunno. Maybe I'll show you the steering wheel technique some time. The reason it works is because when you turn upside down, you are twisting in the opposite direction but to the same shoulder. The steering wheel technique also traces the figure 8 that occurs in the upper torso or shoulders due to "tilt." Good point about the face flop on a 1 1/2 twist. I like the uphill stuff myself. I used to use all kinds of up hill drills. The wedge mats are good for that too.

 

[gymdog]

One other thing you might try: having her work her 1/1 with her arms wider. I had a similar problem for awhile; after learning my 3/2 and 2/1, I had trouble going back down to 1/1s. What helped with me was trying to do the 1/1 with my arms out wider to slow the turn, rather than wrapping it.

I like to teach a 1/1 as a slow, liesurely turn; there really isn't anything fast or aggressive about it. It should be slow, floaty, and liesurely, and when you get it right it's actually much easier to control than a layout that doesn't twist.

I keep my arms straight on a full (and a half). I sort of just drop them through the full. If I pulled like I did for a double full, I'd probably overtwist too. If this kid can't do a layout half, that would be my first step. Take it back to bounce handstand off a mini tramp doing the half twist then the full onto mat stack. So many kids can't do a half twist. This is a problem in my opinion. They should be able to do a half twist and punch salto. Then they are more likely to know where they are in the 1.5 punch front. My coaches always made us practice the half twist before we could go on. Everyone had to do half, full, 1.5, double, etc when we did tumbling. I'm grateful for this because I've met so many higher level gymnasts who have less options with tumbling because they've gradually lost their ability to find the 1/2 and can only do fulls and doubles.

Once she can consistently do the half, and consistently do the full, then she can move on. I also think learning more twisting too fast is not a good idea (I know you weren't in control of what she was doing on the trampoline, just a general comment). Like anything else, it's tempting to have a kid who is picking things up fast do whatever they can in the moment, but I've seen way too many people with serious twisting problems to push it too fast. I've seen kids who are occasionally still trying to twist the wrong way and a coach is letting them move on to doubles. This isn't good people!!! Then this is the kid who gets lost, falls, and won't do any back tumbling for a year...

 

[Deleted member D3987]

Nice try, dunno. Maybe I'll show you the steering wheel technique some time. The reason it works is because when you turn upside down, you are twisting in the opposite direction but to the same shoulder. The steering wheel technique also traces the figure 8 that occurs in the upper torso or shoulders due to "tilt." Good point about the face flop on a 1 1/2 twist. I like the uphill stuff myself. I used to use all kinds of up hill drills. The wedge mats are good for that too.

being upside down is the clarification. when you turn the wheel right on take off the left arm raises which shortens the right side of the body causing a right tilt. this is called 'borrowing' from one side of the body.

then when you are upside down turning the wheel back left causes you twist in the same direction that you intended. i don't think you meant the "opposite direction".

this is similar to the hula hoop technique used on a trampoline. i won't be snarky by adding "nice try". remember your audience. upside down was the completion of what you attempted to explain. that is all.

 

[triptwister]

Great explanation, dunno. Thanks.

Steering wheel cue for right twister...turn right then turn left.
Steering wheel cue for left twister...turn left then turn right.

...you can even hold a Frisbee in your hands to simulate a steering wheel. When you turn the wheel the other way you pull it in below the sternum and cut hard.