Fast-tracking to Elite - Pitfalls or red flags to look for?

[Geoffrey Taucer]

But at 5 or 6 yrs old are they really ready to commit to 13 yrs of working 7hrs a day plus homework. That is a huge commitment to make on behalf of 6 yr old, who really cannot understand what they are choosing. And why bother when very few will go on to any type of real greatness. Very few will win the nobel prize, most will become pencil pushers or laborers. Is that worth sacrificing their entire childhood. Couldn't we wait until 11, 12, 13 and then if they really wanted to excel at academia, had the talent, suppportive parents, etc.. there would still be time.

I'm not trying to turn this into a conversation about schooling, just asking that you think outside the box. Aren't there really a lot of viable ways to go about training gymnastics?

If the goal is fun, enjoyment, personal growth, follow path A.
If the goal is a competing NCAA, follow path B.
If the goal is taking a shot at being the best of the best... then what is wrong with that. It may not be the path YOU or most would recommend to parents. It may not be what you want to do or support, but is it not in itself an acceptable path for any who want to take it?

The problem is that you're still working under the assumption that these are inherently separate paths. In case anybody has not yet caught it:

KIDS DO NOT HAVE TO START TRAINING AT 6 IN ORDER TO GO ELITE. WAITING TO MAKE THAT DECISION UNTIL LATER DOES NOT PREVENT THEM FROM GOING ELITE

As I said in an earlier post; Alicia Sacramone, one of our 2008 olympians, did not even start gymnastics until she was 8.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

This discussion is a good one. Maybe we shouldn't be so quick to discount Stretch? Neither side is 100% correct and if you don't listen and weigh the merit of both sides you are 100% wrong.

Last night my DD had practice. Came home and while relaxing, told me she wants to be an elite gymnast by the time she is 14. Huh? I have never talked about ANY level of gymnastics with her (she is 7) so I was a little confused. She said well, Im 7 and training L5 so I think that is a good goal. Explaining to her the real situation was outside of the scope of our sleepy conversation but it got me thinking.

Based on the discussion here should I have told her the impossibilty of said goal? Im still curious where she even heard about this. I think its OK to let children pursue goals, within reason. Gymnastics isnt really so different from other sports IMO as far as children aspiring to greatness. Most little league players dream of the bigs. The main difference is the age range when the bigs happens. In most sports, children get older and realize what it really entails, while in gymnastics, if you wait until you are able to fully understand, its probably too late.

Again, very interesting discussion. For discussion sake I will add DD is an average gymnast so I am not concerned with having to worry about elite and all that it entails..

in all of this discussion, you NEVER want to dash a childs dream. they must know that everything is possible in life. reality can wait until they are old enough to understand life ramifications as you have pointed out.

 

[Linsul]

I think the shakespearian metaphors are so intentionally confusing that this could possibly be gymnastics trolling. It reads 'ELITE OR BUST, LEVEL 10 BY 12 OR GO PLAY SOCCER!' to me. Maybe I don't understand the nuance, but since I don't think we were entirely meant to I don't feel bad.

 

[MdGymMom01]

i'll be right back...now i must go " brush up my shakespeare".

Now, now Dunno...nobody likes to be "mocked" . Right, Mariainlv???

 

[MdGymMom01]

I think the shakespearian metaphors are so intentionally confusing that this could possibly be gymnastics trolling. It reads 'ELITE OR BUST, LEVEL 10 BY 12 OR GO PLAY SOCCER!' to me. Maybe I don't understand the nuance, but since I don't think we were entirely meant to I don't feel bad.

I hear ya Linsul!!! Considering that my kid (and most of her teammates) and a LOT of other gymmies of parents on the CB are just "lettuce", I am going to leave now and make a salad...anyone wanna join me???

 

[Billy]

Last night my DD had practice. Came home and while relaxing, told me she wants to be an elite gymnast by the time she is 14. Huh? I have never talked about ANY level of gymnastics with her (she is 7) so I was a little confused. She said well, Im 7 and training L5 so I think that is a good goal. Explaining to her the real situation was outside of the scope of our sleepy conversation but it got me thinking.

Based on the discussion here should I have told her the impossibilty of said goal?

About a year ago (she was 7), my daughter told me that she wanted to be elite when she is 12, go to the Olympics when she's 14, and then be a Gym Dog. So, did I point out to her how hard that would be? Did I explain to her that 14-year-olds aren't even allowed at the Olympics? Heck no! She was 7! I told her, "Right on! That's a lot of work but go for it!" I am not about to stomp on her dreams. She will have plenty of time to learn the sport and understand the ramifications of her goals as she gets older and she may adjust those goals accordingly. Why take those dreams away already? "Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars."

 

[Deleted member D3987]

Well, we already essentially have two tracks. I'm not really sure what the actual proposal is here. I wouldn't be so quick to discount this poster if I could figure out what he was arguing but to be honest the "metaphors" aren't lending themselves so well to that. As far as I can tell he is suggesting the system is inadequate and should be replaced...with a system we already essentially have (suited to our culture). It seems to have gotten somewhat circular at this point. I think what most of the coaches are arguing here is that if anything many gyms are too elite minded, not the other way around.

yes, gymdog. you understand that this issue is a part of our culture. yes, it is essentially circular logic.

and is stretch aware that valeri and yvegeny have level 5's-9's and good level 10's? i think their system within our system is pretty good and they have been successful. i know them personally. they love the opportunity that our country offered. they have loved building their program to integrate a bit of "russia" in to their training system. and they sincerely love the quasi-centralized system that we use. they despised the system that they came up in. AND they have stated on several occasions publicly how much they enjoy the fruits of their labor. translation? they still can't believe that they make as much income as they do doing what we all love. Mmmmm...i think they get it and what's important. without income and a decent quality of life we can not do what we do. so, as Geoff said, the gold medals are the icing on the cake.

 

[nevertooold]

The problem is that you're still working under the assumption that these are inherently separate paths. In case anybody has not yet caught it:

KIDS DO NOT HAVE TO START TRAINING AT 6 IN ORDER TO GO ELITE. WAITING TO MAKE THAT DECISION UNTIL LATER DOES NOT PREVENT THEM FROM GOING ELITE

As I said in an earlier post; Alicia Sacramone, one of our 2008 olympians, did not even start gymnastics until she was 8.

That was pretty condescending.

I understand that waiting is ok. I think you made that point well in your previous post and I agree with you.

Would it be possible that starting at 6 is also ok? Could it be that in this vast and diverse country there are children and families and coaches and facilities in which this could be an acceptable choice? Is there no fathomable set of circumstances under which beginning to train with the goal of becoming an elite gymnast at 6 yrs old is acceptable?

 

[Stretchsportguy]

If we are skillful and if we are careful, then we can minimize the consequences. I blame myself for burnout and injury when by it I am made incompetent. We can do better than that my fellow countrymen. Bela or not, its up to us now to have our members stay the course and get there in one piece.

 

[MdGymMom01]

Alicia Sacramone

EDIT: to give an example, let's look at Alicia Sacramone.

Anybody know what level Alicia was when she was 7? I'll tell you: she had not even started taking gymnastics.

On a side not (if anyone is interested) this is what I found regarding Alicia Sacramone:

Alicia was born on December 3, 1987, began dance at the age of 3, and started training gymnastics 5 years later at the age of 8. She entered the elite ranks in 2002 at the age of 15...

So, waiting or starting at an older age, sometimes does not necessarily put you out of the running for the elite path.

 

[Linsul]

yes, gymdog. you understand that this issue is a part of our culture. yes, it is essentially circular logic.

and is stretch aware that valeri and yvegeny have level 5's-9's and good level 10's? i think their system within our system is pretty good and they have been successful. i know them personally. they love the opportunity that our country offered. they have loved building their program to integrate a bit of "russia" in to their training system. and they sincerely love the quasi-centralized system that we use. they despised the system that they came up in. AND they have stated on several occasions publicly how much they enjoy the fruits of their labor. translation? they still can't believe that they make as much income as they do doing what we all love. Mmmmm...i think they get it and what's important. without income and a decent quality of life we can not do what we do. so, as Geoff said, the gold medals are the icing on the cake.

I can totally concur here with what was said about Valeri and Yevgeny. Having been in their gym, heard them speak, and seen what they teach, they live the love of what they do. Yevgeny will get on his hands and knees and teach a 3yr old a forward roll with just as much engagement and enthusiasm as coaching an elite. Seeing that has stuck with me. No matter how far you go or who you coach, keeping an open and joyful mind about what you do makes it all the more gratifying, and gets the best from your gymnasts. From that place you can almost be a battery of positive energy, and you don't have to sacrifice standards to do it. Whatever a gymnasts best is should be the goal, whether it's a forward roll or the newest most difficult skill ever attempted.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

That was pretty condescending.

I understand that waiting is ok. I think you made that point well in your previous post and I agree with you.

Would it be possible that starting at 6 is also ok? Could it be that in this vast and diverse country there are children and families and coaches and facilities in which this could be an acceptable choice? Is there no fathomable set of circumstances under which beginning to train with the goal of becoming an elite gymnast at 6 yrs old is acceptable?

for the sake of polite argument, i can tell you that at least 6 other countries did this in their sport system over the last 40 years. they produced phenomenal athletes. but it is well known that these systems were rife with all kinds of abuse [not to imply coaches punching out their athletes to execute series on beam] and it has been said that their systems went thru approx 100 athletes to get 1. the east german swim scandal being 1 of the worst cases on the books. coaches and adminstrators went to prison.

so is it acceptable? i'm not sure because any elites i have had did not begin gymnastics with that concept in mind. i don't think any coach in this country has that predictable crystal ball. sometimes we see it when they're 6 and sometimes when they are 12. i think that is Geoff's point. i do think that it is wrong minded to begin any 6 year old down a path in any endeavor that specializes and pidgeonholes the child to 1 activity. and i think i'm slightly qualified to say this as my wife and i have also raised 3 grown children in to adulthood who also were raised in gymnastics.

 

[Stretchsportguy]

Yes, we are living in the post Bela era...

 

[Deleted member D3987]

Yes, we are living in the post Bela era...

okay stretch, and i'm not a bela fan when he coached, but i do like marta and i have had drinks with both them in their house. bela was a completely different person out of the gym so lets be fair to bela...we are living in a post communist sports era. it's much kinder. still problems but much kinder. and to be fair, and without using names, there were plenty of USA coaches in the past that rivaled the most abusive coaches of any other country.

 

[Stretchsportguy]

Have you ever considered that gymnastics is in our neurology? ...In 1891, Robinson found that a new-born human infant is able to support its own weight when holding on to a horizontal rod. He tested sixty infants, and found that all except two could hang for at least ten seconds, and one infant hung for two minutes and thirty-five seconds.
from the JAMA archives of neurology and psychiatry.

 

[Linsul]

Have you ever considered that gymnastics is in our neurology? ...In 1891, Robinson found that a new-born human infant is able to support its own weight when holding on to a horizontal rod. He tested sixty infants, and found that all except two could hang for at least ten seconds, and one infant hung for two minutes and thirty-five seconds.
from the JAMA archives of neurology and psychiatry.

I think that's more a self preservation ability than a gymnastics specific neurological one. One could argue balance regulation in the ears makes us born to do gymnastics rather than give us the ability to stand right side up. Not knowing the difference would create some interesting situations for our internal organs and functions, so having this built in feature is helpful. Fish have a lateral line that essentially does the same thing. I don't think it means they'll be throwing double fronts anytime soon. Dolphins though, that's another story

 

[MdGymMom01]

Have you ever considered that gymnastics is in our neurology? ...In 1891, Robinson found that a new-born human infant is able to support its own weight when holding on to a horizontal rod. He tested sixty infants, and found that all except two could hang for at least ten seconds, and one infant hung for two minutes and thirty-five seconds.
from the JAMA archives of neurology and psychiatry.

If gymnastics was in our neurology, then wouldn't there be a much higher success rate of elites? Or are you saying that the reason so many kids do not reach elite is because of other factors unrelated to physiology and neurology?

 

[nevertooold]

for the sake of polite argument, i can tell you that at least 6 other countries did this in their sport system over the last 40 years. they produced phenomenal athletes. but it is well known that these systems were rife with all kinds of abuse [not to imply coaches punching out their athletes to execute series on beam] and it has been said that their systems went thru approx 100 athletes to get 1. the east german swim scandal being 1 of the worst cases on the books. coaches and adminstrators went to prison.

so is it acceptable? i'm not sure because any elites i have had did not begin gymnastics with that concept in mind. i don't think any coach in this country has that predictable crystal ball. sometimes we see it when they're 6 and sometimes when they are 12. i think that is Geoff's point. i do think that it is wrong minded to begin any 6 year old down a path in any endeavor that specializes and pidgeonholes the child to 1 activity. and i think i'm slightly qualified to say this as my wife and i have also raised 3 grown children in to adulthood who also were raised in gymnastics.

Thank you for that fair and honest answer. This is the type of thoughtful response that intelligent parents with a talented 6 yr old will find useful, thought provoking and non-judgmental.

And yet some parents will still put their 6 yr olds into fast-track programs. What would really benefit them and this community at large would be a list from you and others with your knowledge and experience of pitfalls to look out for if they choose to fast-track.

What are the red flags parents should look for?

 

[MdGymMom01]

This is a new thread branched off of Teamgirl's initial thread of her decision with her 6 year old. Sorry that your initial thread got high-jacked Teamgirl .

So, for those on the elite path or have been there, are there any red flags to look for?

 

[Stretchsportguy]

Have you ever considered that we are born to swim...concensus dictates that the optimal age to start babies is between six months and 12 months old...have you ever considered that we are born with a stretching instinct for a purpose and is essential to any exercise regimen? We are born with a grip reflex, ability to swim, stretch tendencies and much more. Do we see a pattern?