How do you set kids up when learning kip?

[NGL780309]

My question for coaches out there (and anyone else who knows) is regarding the set up of the bar when a kid is first learning kip. How close should they stand to the bar and how high should the bar be?

I'm asking because DD has had 2 coaches do it different ways and one way works really well for her and the other not at all. One coach sets her up 2 panel mats so the bar is above shoulder level, but not way above shoulder level and she starts further back. With this approach she gets a really good glide and can almost do the kip by herself. The coach says he is barely touching her.

The other coach has her start really close to the bar and just standing on the regular mat. She pretty much jumps to the bar in a dead hang (she's little) and doesn't really glide and can't do the kip at all. So from this approach she's nowhere close. I'm not a gym coach or a gymnast and don't pretend to be, but from my perspective it seems like she's starting so close to the bar and the bar is so high that she can't glide.

How do you teach your little ones a kip?

 

[gymgurl]

Most people i know kip using a box, even some of the taller ones as a good glide is easier to get from a box

 

[marie83]

In session 1 I have the gymnast stand very close to the bar so that they don't have to jump at all. They begin by standing on a springboard with hands on the bar(sometimes I even lower the bar if they are particularly small). I then get them to jump upwards and forwards - this is just to teach the shape of the glide.

Once the gymnast has the glide, I move the board further and further away as a longer jump will encourage a better glide.

Eventually I have to raise the bar to competition height, but I like to get the glide right first.


Having said this, I have a very tiny gymnast in my group - can still hang on the low bar without touching the floor and she is 9 this year! She struggles with the float due to her height, but she likes the board really far from the bar - further than some of the taller girls even! But I think this is because she does more of a long hang kip rather than a glide kip on the low bar! Perhaps your DDs coach who has her stand closer to the bar is really trying to improve her glide action?

 

[marie83]

The other coach has her start really close to the bar and just standing on the regular mat. She pretty much jumps to the bar in a dead hang (she's little) and doesn't really glide and can't do the kip at all. So from this approach she's nowhere close. I'm not a gym coach or a gymnast and don't pretend to be, but from my perspective it seems like she's starting so close to the bar and the bar is so high that she can't glide.

How do you teach your little ones a kip?

Just re-read this bit and realised you said the 2nd coach doesn't have her stand on anything - Not entirely sure why that would be! I'd always have my gymnasts start by standing on a springboard or yurchenko collar (only because my gymnasts are too lazy to lug a big old springboard out of the store! ) I only have 2 gymnasts who kip from the floor and they are both tall!

 

[BlairBob]

Feet under bar, bar roughly as high as head height, perhaps lower. I generally start them at first with their hands already on the bar and they will have to push up and back, piking in their hips to begin the glide.

 

[gymnut1]

I do what Blairbob does first to start off.

Then I follow by teaching my little ones the glide from standing on a box about my knee height. Not far back though -close in until they have the jump into the glide right. Eventually they move to a spring board from further back.

I agree a little one needs some thing to stand on.

I also have a tiny one that is too small to glide properly because she can't touch the ground when she hangs under the bar so she sort of just swings like she would on a high bar. I pull a 8 inch mat under for her go which forces her to glide otherwise she catches her feet. Bingo - nice glide

I see alot of glide kips on youtube that look like long hang kips to me - there is actually a 0.1 deduction for that but I wonder if it is ever taken.

It is very frustrating to have 2 coaches teach a move so differently. Both will have good reasons and are probably focussing on different parts of the kip. I don't see a good reason not to have her stand on something though.

 

[Megley]

When my dd was learning her kip, I would get so irritated when she was made to jump up to catch the bar. It made it so much more difficult for her. I assume they did it because she was the only really tiny one in the group and it was too much of a pain to add mats. She learned it eventually in any event and now can drop kip so I guess it didn't deter her too much. Anyway, this is just to say I feel your pain!

And yes, it is hard for them to learn a proper glide kip when they can't even touch the ground hanging from hb. At 9yo my dd still can't touch (she does low bar giants) and it's been hard for her coaches to teach her a proper glide into her kip.

 

[LizzieLac]

My DD has been learning her kip jumping from the floor most of the time, no box, mat or board. I have to say I don't understand this, as I believe in competition they may jump up to bar from a springboard. I have to admit I don't know much about gymnastics though, somaybe this makes sense to others.

But this has raised a question between my DH and I, that maybe some of you can answer. Wouldn't it be hard to kip if you are jumping to a bar that is set higher than one that is set lower? In other words shouldn't they practice at the height the bar would be set for them in competition?

 

[NGL780309]

In session 1 I have the gymnast stand very close to the bar so that they don't have to jump at all. They begin by standing on a springboard with hands on the bar(sometimes I even lower the bar if they are particularly small). I then get them to jump upwards and forwards - this is just to teach the shape of the glide.

This is how she started with the coach who has her standing further away on two panel mats. She stood on a block and worked a lot on the glide. She's at the point with him where she has moved futher back and is just on mats.

Once the gymnast has the glide, I move the board further and further away as a longer jump will encourage a better glide.

Eventually I have to raise the bar to competition height, but I like to get the glide right first.


Having said this, I have a very tiny gymnast in my group - can still hang on the low bar without touching the floor and she is 9 this year! She struggles with the float due to her height, but she likes the board really far from the bar - further than some of the taller girls even! But I think this is because she does more of a long hang kip rather than a glide kip on the low bar! Perhaps your DDs coach who has her stand closer to the bar is really trying to improve her glide action?

DD is little enough to hang on the low bar without her feet touching.

 

[NGL780309]

Just re-read this bit and realised you said the 2nd coach doesn't have her stand on anything - Not entirely sure why that would be! I'd always have my gymnasts start by standing on a springboard or yurchenko collar (only because my gymnasts are too lazy to lug a big old springboard out of the store! ) I only have 2 gymnasts who kip from the floor and they are both tall!

Yes she starts standing on nothing. Frankly she can't do it that way. She's really little and only 5. She has trouble just jumping to the bar period so without something to stand on she can't glide. It's like she stands right under the bar and jumps straight up and then can't glide.

 

[NGL780309]

Feet under bar, bar roughly as high as head height, perhaps lower. I generally start them at first with their hands already on the bar and they will have to push up and back, piking in their hips to begin the glide.

That is exactly how she has learned with the coach that now has her standing further back and on two mats. They have worked up to this point. A lot of time was spent in the beginning working on jumping the hips back and into a pike before gliding.

With the other coach she can't even reach the low bar standing on the ground. It's that high for her. She certainly can't use the same technique she has learned from the other coach. She stands practically underneath the bar and jumps straight up to a dead hang. In my non gymnast/coach knowledge it will never work that way! It has made me wonder if this second coach even knows what she's doing.

 

[NGL780309]

I do what Blairbob does first to start off.

Then I follow by teaching my little ones the glide from standing on a box about my knee height. Not far back though -close in until they have the jump into the glide right. Eventually they move to a spring board from further back.

That's what she did with the one coach. She's at the point where she has moved back.

I agree a little one needs some thing to stand on.

I also have a tiny one that is too small to glide properly because she can't touch the ground when she hangs under the bar so she sort of just swings like she would on a high bar. That describes what happens with the second coach exactly. I pull a 8 inch mat under for her go which forces her to glide otherwise she catches her feet. Bingo - nice glide

I see alot of glide kips on youtube that look like long hang kips to me - there is actually a 0.1 deduction for that but I wonder if it is ever taken.

It is very frustrating to have 2 coaches teach a move so differently. Both will have good reasons and are probably focussing on different parts of the kip. I don't see a good reason not to have her stand on something though.

Just to be honest I really question whether the second coach really knows what she is doing. I hate to say that, but it's true. She has never coached above L4 (this being her 1st year at that) and wasn't more than a rec gymnast either. I don't want to criticize, but thought maybe there might be some logical explanation that I wasn't aware of.

 

[gymnut1]

I think your mama instincts are probably right. She needs a box to jump from because the bar is too high without. Could you ask the coach if she could possibly jump from a box. Say she has noticed it is much easier for her from a box but didn't like to ask. Say your dd will get the mats herself and set them up (might need a friend to help). We call that 'mat conditioning' lol. Amazing what them littlies can carry when they want to.

 

[Mariainlv]

Is this the same coach that has the less than helpful way of training the vault? If so, hmm. Seems like alot of what she is doing is counter-intuitive. May be time for a talk with the owner?

 

[NGL780309]

I think your mama instincts are probably right. She needs a box to jump from because the bar is too high without. Could you ask the coach if she could possibly jump from a box. Say she has noticed it is much easier for her from a box but didn't like to ask. Say your dd will get the mats herself and set them up (might need a friend to help). We call that 'mat conditioning' lol. Amazing what them littlies can carry when they want to.

To be honest I already asked this coach what the deal was and was met with a very defensive answer that made no sense to me. I explained that DD was doing her kip with the other coach in her private and was having success and explained how she was set up for that. I said she was standing on a panel mat and a springboard and the coach went off on how under no circumstances can they use a springboard to learn their kip and how that was completely wrong. (Anyone care to comment on that) Even when I explained that sometimes she uses a springboard and sometimes it's just panel mats and she wasn't really getting any spring off the springboard, just using it for height. I also got some answer about how they aren't supposed to be piked. The other coach is teaching her to jump her hips back and pike. She then keeps that slightly piked postion until she extends at the end of the glide and then pulls her toes to the bar. A lot of time was spent on this portion with the other coach. This coach tried to say that is wrong. I even showed her a video of DD doing it and asked her to explain what was wrong with it and she couldn't give me an answer. She needed to "study" it. I can't remember everything that was said, but the conversation went round and round and made no sense. Basically she kept saying she needed to glide more and I kept questioning how she was supposed to do that when she's jumping straight up in a dead hang and she would respond with she needs to glide more. It went no where. I've accepted the fact that either a) the coach doesn't know what she's talking about or b) she's not good at explaining herself. Either way, I'm just the parent and I'll have to accept it the way it is.

 

[NGL780309]

Is this the same coach that has the less than helpful way of training the vault? If so, hmm. Seems like alot of what she is doing is counter-intuitive. May be time for a talk with the owner?

Yes, same coach. We are just waiting to move on. DD has only 2.5 months left with this coach. They barely work on kips anyway. They might do it just a few minutes. Most of her kip practice is at her private and at open gym.

 

[gymdog]

Well, I hate when the kids start too far back and then jump way out and drag their feet. But that's a different issue. They should be close enough to lift their hips into the glide in order to generate swing, which means for most smaller kids they need to start up on something too. There is the issue of doing a "long hang" kip either way (which I don't think is good - not good practice for when they need to kip out of things either - they have to learn to activate the hip flexors), but that can be solved by putting something under the bar to make it a "lower bar" for those kids, at least during training (obviously for routines there would be some issues with that).

The only thing I could think of as an explanation would be that they were working on long hang kips (used to get to the high bar) but in that case they would probably do some swings maybe, or still jump off something from a squat on position. But since you talked to the coach that doesn't seem like the case, I don't know.

Don't know what she meant about the spring board thing, i prefer them not to use a springboard because you don't always know about meet availability, it can be a pain to pull over, etc, and panel mats work just as well in my opinion.

 

[NGL780309]

Well, I hate when the kids start too far back and then jump way out and drag their feet. But that's a different issue. They should be close enough to lift their hips into the glide in order to generate swing, which means for most smaller kids they need to start up on something too.

Just to clarify, DD isn't starting really far back. She learned first standing on a block and her hands were actually on the bar. Now she is a little more than arm length away. When I was talking about her starting further away from the bar it was relative to her starting standing practically underneath the bar like she does with the second coach.

There is the issue of doing a "long hang" kip either way (which I don't think is good - not good practice for when they need to kip out of things either - they have to learn to activate the hip flexors), but that can be solved by putting something under the bar to make it a "lower bar" for those kids, at least during training (obviously for routines there would be some issues with that).

The only thing I could think of as an explanation would be that they were working on long hang kips (used to get to the high bar) but in that case they would probably do some swings maybe, or still jump off something from a squat on position. But since you talked to the coach that doesn't seem like the case, I don't know.

Don't know what she meant about the spring board thing, i prefer them not to use a springboard because you don't always know about meet availability, it can be a pain to pull over, etc, and panel mats work just as well in my opinion.

Yeah the other coach uses the springboard on a panel mat and sometimes two panel mats. It seems to be whatever is right there. Basiclally he is building up height for her. With regard to her saying they should never use a springboard, she was trying to make it sound like DD was really getting momentum from the springboard to really assist her in her glide. Rather that is wrong or not I don't know, but I can tell you from watching her (and I watched closely after she made that comment) that DD isn't getting any momentum from the springboard. It doesn't even really move. Her kip looks the same with 2 panel mats.

 

[gymnut1]

Seeimg as though you only have 10 weeks to suffer this I would just ignore it for now. You have brought it to the coaches attention. Hopefully the issue will be resolved when she moves to another coach.

 

[hakunamatata]

Definitely, the panel mat approach. That's how I learned and that's how I would teach, if I didn't have to follow the gym's specific coaching lesson plans. This is a more realistic approach anyway. It teaches the gymnast the correct way to make initial contact with the bar (shoulders rounded and extended, almost like blocking off the vault, chin tucked, shoulders about bar height, lifting the hips to generate momentum). Once she has the strength, it won't be a problem for her to kip starting from the ground, but she will never stand that close to the bar in a meet. I understand the coaches starting her from the floor to get the feel of that, but unless I'm really missing something, I don't see any benefit in standing practically right under the bar to start out with.