WAG Is it a fear, or mental block, or does it matter?

[Flyaway]

When do vestibular issues usually start cropping up? Is it age related? Skill related? Both?

 

[SignHere]

Thanks to everyone, for the input.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

The vestibular system, which contributes to our balance and our sense of spatial orientation, is the sensory system that provides the dominant input about movement and equilibrioception. Together with the cochlea, a part of the auditory system, it constitutes the labyrinth of the inner ear, situated in the vestibulum in the inner ear (Figure 1). As our movements consist of rotations and translations, the vestibular system comprises two components: the semicircular canal system, which indicate rotational movements; and the otoliths, which indicate linear accelerations. The vestibular system sends signals primarily to the neural structures that control our eye movements, and to the muscles that keep us upright. The projections to the former provide the anatomical basis of the vestibulo-ocular reflex, which is required for clear vision; and the projections to the muscles that control our posture are necessary to keep us upright.

i took this from a med site with the simplest explanation. this is our system of all things balance. the 2 important components are those that measure "rotational movements" & "linear accelerations" and as they relate to signals that are sent to neural structures that control our eye movements.

a couple of examples: a dad runs fast down the grocery aisle with their child in the cart facing forward. You've all seen this. the child usually screams, squeals and laughs from the "linear" (horizontal) speed that the child's vestibular system measures and sends to the eyes.

now turn the child facing the dad and do the same thing. you've all seen this also but may have never wondered why facing backward does not illicit the same response. in this instance, the child's vestibular system can not measure linear speed forward, hence no response as in the 1st example.

yet in either example you could find the child screaming in fear or screaming in joy and laughter no matter which direction you place the child in the cart.

next: Nasa and Air Force pilot schools. pilots flunk out regularly. when they achieve certain speeds they pass out. for some it is when they reach certain speeds coupled with "rolling". pilots have to be able to do both without passing out. some peoples vestibular systems can not handle the vestibular systems sensory input of over stimulation.

next: the old 'back seat driver' syndrome. you are driving the car @ 55 mph. your passenger says to slow down "your going to fast!" yet another passenger says "geez...ya think you can get us to the church on time? yer drivin like a granny!" and no offense to grannies. but when the passenger takes over the driving, they may well speed up or slow down compared to what the 1st driver did. this is all because of one's vestibular system. and whether they held the steering wheel (proprioception or 'feel' of the wheel) or not. depending where you sit (optic sensory system connected to the vestibular system) or not.

next: the roller coaster. some people get dizzy, throw up and pee themselves. others whoop and holler and can't wait to do it again. the blame falls squarely on one's vestibular system.

these are things that people just take for granted. but how does it translate to diving and gymnastics? and sometimes figure skating?? the vestibular system in human beings vary at/during different times of maturation. just as the body grows and matures to adulthood so does one's vestibular system. along the way, some children have more mature vestibular systems than others. and this includes but are not limited to disablilites that you may not know of or can clearly see.

the simple round off: a child runs forward (linear). the average speed is approx 4 mph. if they perform the round off correctly it will speed up (acceleration) before they hit their feet. they must also 1/4 turn down to the floor and 1/4 turn back up to their feet (rotational). so, it becomes like a math problem. forward run linear speed @ 4 mph>to 1/4 turn to upside down>to 1/4 turn to right side up to the feet= 5-7 mph increase of internal/linear force. the childs vestibular system is taking measurements of all the movement taking place...from the hands and feet being on the floor...and including that paucity of a moment when they are in space.

if you ask 2 children. 1 might state "whew, i was going so fast on my round off i couldn't see anything and that's why i sat down". the other states "geesh, i'm trying to go as fast as i can and i feel like i can't".

but when the coach observes the 1st the coach states "you couldn't have gone any slower if you tried!" and to the 2nd he states "worry not, you're moving fast enough". the coach observes complete opposites to what the kids 'feel'. yet it is the vestibular systems of 2 different children measured differently in a quantitative measurement and 'felt' differently in the kids compared to what the coach sees in the comparative analysis in the 'minds eye' of the coach.

now put in the flip-flop. the 1st child 'senses' that i have to much 'ooomph' (linear speed coupled with rotational force) and "i don't think i will be able to put my hands down on the floor and i might hit my head".

the 2nd child 'senses' that she doesn't have near enough 'ooomph' to "make it over" and "i might land on my head". can you all see the predicament?

now take a 3rd child. a child with an inexplicable but very mature vestibular system. has the worst technique and form that a coach has ever seen. so bad that...the coach won't even let the kid attempt a round off>flip-flop. this child 'senses' that no matter what...i'm not scared of what the other 2 are scared of and i'm going anyway even if my coach yells at me and tells my parents. and you all have seen this kid too in your gym.

you see, everyone calls the 3rd child the "fearless" one. but fearless is a medical misnomer. it really is about what is taking place in the vestibular system of all 3 children. hence, the "backwards problem". it will come and go as the kids mature. sometimes it will present itself once. for some kids it may be several times thru their career. in some it will be really bad and carry on for months. yet in others it lasts a couple of weeks. for some only a back walkover on beam. for most that have immature vestibular systems, it will present for all things going backwards on all events. there is no consistency with the kids...yet the consistency is in the how the individual's vestibular system measures and responds to all of the forces that are being placed upon it.

if parents can accept paying money when they see this problem going nowhere yet their kid loves it, and the coaches are patient during these periods of anxiety and explain it to the kids and parents, i have seen most kids mature thru and outgrow the problem. unfortunately, you can not predict when a child's vestibular system will mature and come in to its own.

to coaches: when you see this problem you now know that it is not due to lack of confidence or the child seeking negative attention or other various sundry statements i've heard over the years from under-educated coaches. the problem is real. speak to other professionals in the medical field.

and to parents: if any of you might be a neurologist...well then...no further explanation is needed, right?



p.s. before you ask... no amount of sports psychology, self help books or hypnotism can readily "cure" this problem.

 

[MissLisa]

Wow, what a great explanation. Now if only I knew this back when I was 9 and lost my backwards tumbling for a month or so. I felt crazy as I knew I could do it but I just couldn't do it.. Also explains why now with almost no training I can do the things I was so afraid of back then with absolutely no problem. Also explains why it suddenly 'clicked' again and came back. I think it happened badly twice during my competition years.

Thanks so much for sharing this. Will definitely help with my coaching as well, not that I've encountered much of this due to the nature of my current coaching job but will definitely store it up for future reference.

 

[gymgal]

and to parents: if any of you might be a neurologist...well then...no further explanation is needed, right?

or therapists/teachers with experience working with children on the autism spectrum. Very common to observe extremes of the vestibular system in this population. Proprioception as well. But that's another topic, though closely related.

 

[Committed]

So, to beat a dead horse (anyone can chime in here), a kid who will do standing back tuck on the floor, but freaks out when attempting it on any raised surface (1 inch mat OR beam) is having vestibular issues?
Yes..... the fear is the hitting the head fear. Or is it the fear of an accident prone kid who may very well actually hit their head?

 

[Flyaway]

Thank you dunno for taking the time to explain!

 

[gymboymom]

As a ped OT who treats kids with vestibular issues as part of sensory integrative disorder. I wanted to add a list of the order of intensity of different vestibular inputs. Backwards tumbling combines so many of these inputs. I am not surprised a lot of gymnasts experience issues with this while they are growing.

Levels of vestibular input in order of increasing intensity:

1. Up and down
2. Front to back movement
3. Side to side movement
4. Diagonal movement
5. Arc movements (resembles the shape of a rainbow)
6. Spinning
7. Inversion (upside down)

 

[AV24]

Gymboymom, have you heard of the OT astronaut training program? My step-mom is also a pediatric OT, and she told me about this program. It is supposed to help balance an immature or unbalanced vestibular system. I have read many threads here on CB about this issue, and it's always made me wonder if that program could help gymnasts during these times. Dunno, have you heard about it? It's kind of fascinating, actually. The company that sells the manual and offers the training workshops is called Vital Links.

 

[gymboymom]

Gymboymom, have you heard of the OT astronaut training program? My step-mom is also a pediatric OT, and she told me about this program. It is supposed to help balance an immature or unbalanced vestibular system. I have read many threads here on CB about this issue, and it's always made me wonder if that program could help gymnasts during these times. Dunno, have you heard about it? It's kind of fascinating, actually. The company that sells the manual and offers the training workshops is called Vital Links.

Yes and I have used it a bit. It mostly uses spinning though. But I would find it fascinating to try it on a gymnast having these issues. However, I feel there is a huge mental component to these blocks when the vestibular issue arrises, and not sure how much it would help. Do you agree dunno that the vestibular issues are combined with mental pretty quickly?

 

[Deleted member D3987]

yes. and yes i have heard of this program. and yes, it mostly uses spinning. we have to do more than that.

 

[gracyomalley]

I'm pretty sure that the kids themselves decide its a mental thing and then lose their confidence quickly with these issues...at least the "typical" perfectionistic gymnast does....DD's never been one to "chuck"things, but ALL her fears/blocks have been with backward skills, occ. on floor but mostly with beam. Skills she "knows" she can do (and she can). Skills she is convinced she doesn't want to "defeat her". She's also a "better" back tumbler than front - at least form wise - so she'd really like to get (and her old coach really pushed her to get) "over" the block. Unfortunately it spread to losing confidence with other unrelated, just hard to learn quickly skills ( giants, twisting on floor, etc - not super hard - just not as easy as compulsories). Now she feels that she is a "bad" gymnast....

Nice to hear that they do sometimes get through this - hoping she doesn't quit over it. New coach is trying to de-emphasize the particular issues (in DD case BHS-BHS series on beam) and get her to work on other skills more that she can progress in just with hard work (now gianting and working on release moves, harder forward passes than she was planning at old gym, etc...). I just don't know if her pubertal brain/emotions will get her past this! Plus she had terrible trouble with recurrent ear infections as a child - required hospital stay for spreading infections, etc....I'm pretty sure (as an MD) that this may have led to difficulties in her vestibular systems maturation....or it could just be dumb luck!

 

[gymjunkie]

"Vestibular issues" is what creates gymnasts in the first place, lol. If you have a gymnast evaluated by an OT or a neurologist who is interested in such things, they could explain us gymnasts in terms that would make it sound like a disorder because we thrive on an unnatural level of vestibular input. All of the things that gymnasts do fill a need that a "normal" kid does not have. We like to make our bodies stiff and then smack into things really fast... we like to reverse direction really fast... we like to spin on more than one axis... we like to go really high, etc. It's almost pathological but thanks to gymnastics, we have the outlet to do those things and call it a sport.

If a gymnast has not developed a specific pathway to be able to not only enjoy, but crave a specific vestibular motion, the pathway hasn't been developed in that kid. Just working the skill/being put through the motion of working the skill is one way to develop it, but there are also body awareness drills that most of us coaches use to speed up that process. A lot of seemingly basic drills on trampoline help develop these pathways, which is why trampoline & tramp time is essential in a gym. Over the years I've seen linear tumbling on a tumble trak almost replace time spent on a trampoline, which is a mistake IMO.

 

[Aero]

@dunno | So if a child is having vestibular issues with a certain skill or motion, should the coach continue to work with the athlete on that skill or motion until her vestibular system catches up? Or is it wise to take a short break from training that skill or motion and try again later in the month? Would it make a difference either way? Also:

that's MY biggest fear. that's why i don't get up there anymore.

That's why you don't do it anymore? You used to do it in the first place?! I am terrified to even do a straddle jump on beam!

 

[Deleted member D3987]

back in the day, i had a pretty good standing full on beam. never missed...for obvious reasons.

 

[Amusibus]

Great explanations everyone. But I still don't understand why a kid can totally have a skill for months, then lose it. If it's just a matter of maturation, why would this happen? Wouldn't they have trouble just getting it in the first place?

 

[Deleted member D3987]

if they experience vestibular issues, their gymnastics becomes unstable just as their vestibular system does. and if there is no issue, they would have no trouble getting it in the first place.

it's not a question of "losing" it. it's a matter of not being able to go for what they have already learned.

 

[Pea'sMom]

This has been a very informative thread! I had no idea about this body system and it makes a lot of sense from what I see at the gym. I have tried to help Pea out mentally when she's stuck (gym not so big on dealing with the mental side of things) and giving her some of this info will definitely help her out and let her know she's not alone...she's fairly certain she is the only one, ever, who worries about landing on her head or missing the beam

 

[LizzieLac]

if they experience vestibular issues, their gymnastics becomes unstable just as their vestibular system does. and if there is no issue, they would have no trouble getting it in the first place.

it's not a question of "losing" it. it's a matter of not being able to go for what they have already learned.

This makes so much sense. But I just can't figure out what the gymnast is supposed to do. For beam, go back to the line and the low beam? What if that doesn't really help for what seems like ages...?

 

[htimcj]

This makes so much sense. But I just can't figure out what the gymnast is supposed to do. For beam, go back to the line and the low beam? What if that doesn't really help for what seems like ages...?

I think you just have to be patient and keep telling yourself this to shall pass. It usually does.