Why do some meets use age at State Meet?

[drivingmom]

Using the age at state meet drives me nuts. My poor DD always seems to get moved up because of this and she gets so sad as there is a girl in her group that should have been moved up to level 5 this year (she is amazing 2nd year level 4 gymnast that noone can beat). Always taking 1st, my dd is amlost always 2nd. Anyway she would have a few meets that they are not the same age, but most of these meets use their age at states.

I guess I am asking and venting.

 

[gymgurl]

age for what?? as in divisions?

If it is divisions its simply because two girls with the same routine, same coach, same amount of hours in the gym but different ages one will always be significantly better.

Its like when you see 5yo doing round off flips they don't look as nice as an older girl of the same standard as she can simply get more power and rebound hence the older girl can move on earlier.

works the same as routines there is a difference between doing the routine and performing it. little kids don't get the concept of performance as easily and will do the skills but it generally won't feel connected and flowing.

 

[kbuhler]

Hi, I feel your pain. Last year my daughter was 10 but because her birthday was 2 days after state, she competed in the 11 year old group. At one meet, the put 10-12 year olds together. When she took 1st on bars and was on the highest part of the podium, the 12 year olds who were with her were still taller than she was. Look at your state handbook or look at our state www.usagutah.com. It outlines the rules therein.

Good luck! And yes, my daughter's BFF from gym always seems to beat her at everything but bars and beam .

 

[NotAMom]

What you're spelling out will not always be a disadvantage. Soon you will find out, as she moves up the ranks, states will get earlier and earlier so she will have have plenty of kids younger than her in her age group. Then you would likely wish that she is placed in an older age group because an older kid (almost regardless of level) tend to place higher with the same score at a regular meet.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

rotations of kids are broken down by age/birthday cut-offs in order to balance the total amount of kids in a competitive rotation. this is so you don't have 14 in one group and 6 in another.

the above posts don't have it exactly right. the rules for girls only allow so many kids per session, or what they refer to as "judgements". this is per NAWGJ in conjunction with USAG and how many "judgements" they are allowed to do per session.

then it depends on the meet format. traditional, capitol cup, or modified capitol cup. meet directors can only take so many kids per session & then they must balance out the rotation groups. understand?

when you move to state meets they do the same thing.

when they move to regionals and nationals, those brithday cut-offs are made by regional personnel and the USAG, as to birthday cut-offs so that they can balance the groups.

therefore, it could be possible that a 12 year old could compete against a 14 year old contingent on that cut-off in order to meet the "judgement" rule and then to balance the groups. they might all be called "juniors". or junior A, B, C, and D depending on how many kids they determine will compete per session and then rotation.

competitions below state, regionals, and nationals can make there own birthday cut-off rules in order to run big invitationals or even smaller local competitions.

feel free to ask any questions if you don't understand.

 

[drivingmom]

Here is the case in many of our meets. The Gym holding it will use the child's age of the state meet. So for instance an 8 year that turns 9 in April is at a meet in December. The meet puts her in as a 9-11 year group because that is what he age is at states instead of what age she is the day of the meet which is 8. I was wondering why they do this? She has 5 more months before she even turns 9.

Thanks for helping

 

[bogwoppit]

Same here, mine is 10 and will compete with the 11-12 year olds, but you know that doesn't mean that she will come last. Some years she'll be the oldest, others not! It all balances out in the end.

Last year she was 9 competing against the 11/12's and she still didn't come last, she certainly rose to the challenge

 

[Flippers Mom]

I have to agree with NotAMom. As you go up the levels, being older puts you in easier groups. At Flipper's meet this weekend, she didn't place in ANY events, but her AA (36.25) score would have taken the all-around in all but the lowest 2 age groups. On two events that another girl from the gym medaled in, Flipper had higher scores and no bling. It stinks, but that's just how it is.

 

[gymdog]

Here is the case in many of our meets. The Gym holding it will use the child's age of the state meet. So for instance an 8 year that turns 9 in April is at a meet in December. The meet puts her in as a 9-11 year group because that is what he age is at states instead of what age she is the day of the meet which is 8. I was wondering why they do this? She has 5 more months before she even turns 9.

Thanks for helping

The cutoff that determines placement within the age divisions is basically arbitrary and none of these methods of grouping (refer to dunno's post) will ever be completely "fair." Sometimes a kid is advantaged by their placement, sometimes not. Certain age groups are often more competitive at certain levels...but there is only so much we can do. In my state the placement into age divisions for girls is determined by state meets. I don't know if this is explicitly written into our state handbook or not, but I doubt anyone breaks from it. Boys use a different system where their age is determined from September (I think that's the month they use) of that competitive year. Many kids in a given meet are competing "up" (or I suppose in the case of the boys, "down" - don't know exactly how that works, i don't coach boys). We have a season November to May (4/5 states in May) for all levels.

I don't know what the original thought behind this determination is, presumably it's just more convenient to make one standard determination than it is to make a different determination every weekend. The state meet cutoff, this way they compete with competitors more likely to be in their age division at the state meet, which makes sense to me. The other way we could do this like the boys program in my state would be to designate an arbitrary date cutoff that would also be used to determine grouping for the state meet. But either way, I don't know, it's still arbitrary. And for the kids to compete within a group more likely to contain competitors in their states group, we'd still need one cutoff used for pre-state meets and states, rather than a "floating" cutoff. Of course in many smaller invites the age groups are often a lot bigger range than the states group are, but at least the kids stay in the same "range" rather than moving in and out.

While I can see there would be some advantages to using other ways, in many ways I think gymnastics is advantaged by following such standard formats. I think as cheer grows we can really see the difference between having a pre-eminent national organizing body and a more disjointed system. Sometimes we are giving up a little in order to have a system that is actually very good, safe, and predictable. Of couse USAG is not perfect and no one will ever completely agree, but eh. As a coach I don't have to go to every competition wondering what the rules are, how my kids will compete, what the judging standards are. I go to a meet and for the most part we know these things and are able to prepare accordingly. I think USAG has done a good job for the most part affording gyms and coaches flexibility while still maintaining certain rules and procedures.

 

[Pineapple_Lump]

If the age groupings seem unfair, what would you change them to? I know sometimes I have had gymnasts compete against 50+ children and only six overall places were handed out. While sometimes age groups donot work in your favor, be thankful that you have them.

 

[Billy]

It has been my experience in our state that the age groups are done by birthday. For example, the gym will list the participants in order by birthdate. Then they will divide the list into however many equal groups. So, if there's 100 gymnasts participating, they will take that list and divide it into say five age groups. The youngest 20 will be Jr. A, the next 20 will be Jr. B, and so on. So the ages of the girls in the group all depends on the birthdates of the girls competing. Doing it this way prevents having 65 girls ages 9-11 and twenty that are 12-14. It's meant to make all the groups even in numbers. I hope that makes sense. I don't know if I explained it very well.

 

[gymdog]

It has been my experience in our state that the age groups are done by birthday. For example, the gym will list the participants in order by birthdate. Then they will divide the list into however many equal groups. So, if there's 100 gymnasts participating, they will take that list and divide it into say five age groups. The youngest 20 will be Jr. A, the next 20 will be Jr. B, and so on. So the ages of the girls in the group all depends on the birthdates of the girls competing. Doing it this way prevents having 65 girls ages 9-11 and twenty that are 12-14. It's meant to make all the groups even in numbers. I hope that makes sense. I don't know if I explained it very well.

This is the procedure used for meets like nationals. But in my state, even for states the ages are not divided this way. I do not know why. It does make sense, but for whatever reason we don't do it in my state, even for the state meet. There are arbitrary age divisions like 7, 8, etc. They're uneven. For example in L4 typically there are maybe 10 6 year olds and hundreds of 8/9 year olds. They make an effort to break the biggest groups up, for example three groups of 8 year olds divided by birthdays, but the age groups are still uneven.

Part of the issue in some cases I think goes back to the issues mentioned by dunno...there can only be so many girls in a session, and each awards group needs to compete in the same session. So however ages are determined needs to fit in that. Otherwise I guess the "advantage" to using age at state meet is that it's not a situation where a girl is in a different age division than she is at the state meet. Any way you do it I think there's some tradeoff. I generally agree that dividing equally would make the most sense. But perhaps there is some drawback to that I haven't thought of, since it's very common for states to use the "age at state meet" method.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

i don't have the meet director's manual here at home. so, im going from memory. and we run a rather large invite with over 2000 kids both boys and girls.

when we run capitol cup format, your not allowed to have more than 14 kids in a group if it's optionals. so, we have to even split the 14 to 2 groups of 7. and i want to say that you can't exceed 64 judgements in this format. this means no more than 64 kids in that session. 14 x 4= 56. we can take the 6 kid difference and divide them equally and must get permission to do so.

each of the formats have different judgement rules. as i said...traditional, capitol cup, and modified capitol cup. i can't remember how many judgements are allowed. sorry.

when you do compulsory, you are allowed to do more kids. again, sorry, can't remember. but i'm seeing 96. if it is, you can have no more than 96 judgements in a compulsory session.

seems to me someone on this board is a judge and can look at her book to see what is allowed.

anyway, birthdates are the easiest way to split them up. sometimes the child will be the youngest in the group, sometimes oldest, and sometimes somewhere in between. it all depends how many kids will be entered in a meet.

 

[NotAMom]

Here is the case in many of our meets. The Gym holding it will use the child's age of the state meet. So for instance an 8 year that turns 9 in April is at a meet in December. The meet puts her in as a 9-11 year group because that is what he age is at states instead of what age she is the day of the meet which is 8. I was wondering why they do this? She has 5 more months before she even turns 9.

Thanks for helping

I am speculating because it makes sense to me. They do age at states at regular meets because a child can most consistently compete with the same group(s) throughout the entire season.

 

[NotAMom]

What has the most unfair and the most inconsistent that we have experienced is that a team is broken up into separate fleights by gymnast counts and when awards are given it was done by birthdates. Because there are two separate standards and sets of judges used (the difference in scores was quite evident), the child competing in one flight but placed in another can really win/lose out.

 

[coachinkal]

Our competitions at both regionals and finals have divisions mainly based on numbers.

A one or two year age gap is generally not so much of a problem. My older DS has competed with an age span in his group of up to two years since level 3 and he is now level 7. He has usually been the youngest. He has always managed to medal in some events.

I have been frustrated as a coach for a few years now because there have been 4, 5 & 6 year age gaps between the boys I coach and boys of other clubs competing. This to me seems really unfair. We have always had quite a young team.

My younger DS (level 4) who was barely 8 yo had to compete against 12 1/2 year old and another 9 yo/10 yo gymnast had to compete against 15 year olds two years in a row.

Once boys get to around 12-13 yo their physique can be significantly different from that of an 8 year old, not to mention their mental maturity. It was certainly a completely different experience for me to coach 11,12 and 13 year olds in level 3 compared to 7 and 8 year olds.

As a team we have decided to send most of our younger boys down the optional path for a year to enable them to catch up age wise.

There are normally greater numbers of girls competing so age gaps are not so much of a problem.