Why the long hours?

[Flossyduck]

Ok. I've been picking up on a few threads recently about advantages and disadvantages of long hours at a young age, not the least I Wanna Coach's comments about it being possible to make it to elite and national team in the states whilst still training compulsories at 12.

My other half and I have spent a lot of time thinking over the summer and wondering whether it is really necessary for dd to be pushed and put so much time in. She just turned 9 and currently trains 'elite'.

We've watched friends drop out of the elite track and seem happy, either in other sports or on fewer hours. She's had two minor injury issues - dorsal wrist displacement and a mild ankle sprain. Both healed fine and pretty quickly, but the timing of both was unfortunate because the pressure is on them to be ready at a certain time. The age groups comps are one chance a year and you have to be on it on that day. She didn't make nationals and that never goes down well.

They've changed the UK system, so that the whole 'in age' thing is less of an issue. I think most elite clubs will still go that route for the added kudos. But is there another practical reason why they should, now it isn't a requirement? Otherwise I don't get what the motivation is?

We hear all the time "it's not a sprint, it's a marathon". So if that is the case then why are they racing young girls to a certain point (this is mostly a UK issue) and abiding by a system which favours those who show early promise over longevity?

dd wants to make national team. I can see that there are a couple of girls in her group who are on a roll right now and they stand a good chance of making the GB age group squad this year, fingers crossed. Assuming there are at least a couple in every other elite club, well the maths don't add up well for dd at the moment. BUT she is 9 and the momentum ebbs and flows and she has lovely form and I'm really not worried.

If we pull dd out of a couple of sessions a week and take a step back, what harm will that do? I'm so tempted to do that. I just don't get the hurry and I don't understand the drive to remain 'in age' when it no longer matters. I feel very conflicted at the moment, because there are mixed messages and I feel we could get it so wrong because of that.

 

[Iwannabemargo]

I would be interested too. I know there is no hope for Pink and Fluffy to go elite, geographically I think the nearest elite club is 180 miles away, but I would love her to go as far as she can

 

[vbbf]

I think it matters to the elite clubs for there elite gymnasts to be in age because to get to national finals you have to be in age and to get on the great britain squad you have to be in age. Most elite clubs would aim for there gymnasts to get on the great britain squad but they wudnt be able to if they were out of age.

 

[vbbf]

Also i think its even harder now to be in age because they have increased the difficulty in each level. They would probably need the long hours to get the harder skills earlier than previously needed if they were aiming to be in age

 

[bogwoppit]

I think the changes in the system are a good thing. It will mean that only kids who really have a chance will end up training for elite.

I think a bigger problem is the number of clubs who allow kids in to their "Elite" streams in order to pad the numbers. There are lots of kids in elite training groups who really haven't got any chance. It seems some clubs do not care as much about that as they do about funding the elite groups. Without numbers, and money, you just cannot keep elite groups going.

As to the long hours, there are long hours, and then there are CRAZY hours. A good coach should be able to get a group of talented, and hardworking, kids to a good standard on less than twenty hours a week. More than that is crazy. Just IMHO of course. For older gymnasts at higher levels I can totally understand 20 -30 hours a week, but in the primary school years it just seems a bit bonkers.

 

[Fliptwisttumble]

I do not know anything about your system in the UK. But I will share what one of DD's coached had told me about 6 months or so ago: that girls should learn as much as they can before say 12 (hitting puberty). He said that it is hard enough for them to maintain and perfect the skills after that, as they are bigger heavier, etc. I assumed for DD that this was why he thought her increase in hours was a good thing.

There was another recent thread (link below) where IWC referred to girls become "as good as she's going to be" by the age of 12..... perhaps the two coaches (DD's and IWC) are using the same rationale, but again, it could be coincidence.

http://www.chalkbucket.com/forums/threads/feeling-out-of-place-but-here-it-goes.42255/#post-248232

 

[Uglybetty]

I am also struggling to work out what the new UK scheme means for my DD....since it will take her up to age 13 (14 "in age"). For example, I'm confused as to why it seems to say that level 4 must be "in age" whereas the other compulsory levels don't need to be. If level 4 has to be competed in the year she turns 10 that is next year for us and I have no idea yet whether that's a realistic goal. There also appears to be an increased emphasis on the challenge cup route. Is it just a coincidence that our gym is now pushing a less intense programme for slightly older girls....I don't know?

 

[vbbf]

Compulsory level 4 in age is the year they turn 9 not 10. Level 3 in age is the year they turn 10

 

[Uglybetty]

It's worse than I thought...just double checked and level 4 must compete at age 9 "in the year" so it seems my DD can't do that level at all. Does that mean she has to do level 5 and then skip to 3? The whole thing's a confusing mess.

 

[vbbf]

No you dont need to do level 4 or 5 to do level 3, so she could still do level 3 without doing 4 or 5. However you have to pass level 3 to do level 2. Im not sure why level 4 is only in age

 

[bogwoppit]

I imagine gyms are pushing less intense for older girls as the new system now means that many girls just will not be able to succeed on the elite path. That is just fine as long as they are enjoying gym.

Gyms leading parents, and gymmies, down the garden path with the lure of elite is something that really bugs me.

When you see training groups with girls who are clearly on the right track and then some filler girls who are not up to level it is weird. Girls should be able to compete and train at a level they will be successful at.

I really feel the new system was implemented to weed out kids earlier so that they could be set on the right path for them sooner. But it may be that those gyms that pad groups out will continue to do it.

 

[Faith]

I don't think the elite system does push them too fast- it was introduced to slow things down. We no longer get 9 year olds competing tsuks etc..

Each level supposedly develops key skills, with the focus on building, with good form and technique.

The pace is set by the long term view, having a full elite skillset by age 16. Yes you could probably take it slower, but once you get past puberty skill acquisition slows down dramatically, so being a couple if years out of age means it's much less likely to develop elite skills between 16-18 than it is 14-16.

Having said that I completely agree with bog- any good club/coach should be able to work up to espoir level on 20 hours or less- sliding down the scale. Level 5, and possibly level 4, I reckon kids with elite talent could do on 8-10 hours.

 

[Jenny]

Talented, hard working kids in a well organised and knowledgeable gym can be successful at nationals at level 4 on around 15 hours a week. I agree with Bog, many gyms 'pad' their elite groups out with kids that are not compulsory material. Despite training sometimes over 20 hours a week these kids end up taking club grades which is crazy and a little unkind IMHO.

 

[Jenny]

There also appears to be an increased emphasis on the challenge cup route. Is it just a coincidence that our gym is now pushing a less intense programme for slightly older girls....I don't know?

I actually think there is now emphasis away from the challenge cup route. They have upped the qualification score from Challenge making it harder to move to the British that way. Coupled with allowing girls to take compulsory grades out of age I would say Compulsory grades now becomes the preferred and possible route into the British for older girls.

 

[bogwoppit]

I moved this thread to the UK forum as that is where it is most relevant.

 

[vbbf]

I agree with jenny. I really dont think a child that is talented and has been selected for the elite route would need more than 15 hours a week for level 4. My dd will be doing level 5 next year and already does 14 hrs a wk because she is in a group with older girls age 8/9. Her hours probably wont increase next year as she already has most of her level 4 skills and even some level 3 skills. She has achieved all that on 14 hours a wk or less. I think that shows that if the child is compulsory material they can manage alot on fewer hours

 

[Jenny]

And let's be honest 15 hours for an 8 year old is still quite a lot of time in the gym and probably 5 times a week. Obviously the less hours you have the better the coaching and organisation of training has to be to make it work. But it can be done.

 

[Uglybetty]

No you dont need to do level 4 or 5 to do level 3, so she could still do level 3 without doing 4 or 5. However you have to pass level 3 to do level 2. Im not sure why level 4 is only in age

I just can't see that jumping straight into level 3 "in age" is realistic, since that would be next year for DD. From what people are saying doing it out of age will probably not assist DD's elite aims, since she could not get to nationals. So despite the reassurance from iwannacoach about late starters (on the other thread), I'm now beginning to think I truly have screwed her chances up. How on earth do you get through the levels "in age" before Espoir if you start late?

I mentioned the challenge cup because it was mentioned by the gym in the context of older gymnasts seemingly appearing from nowhere.

 

[Jenny]

You don't need to get through them before espoir age. I believe you can now work through the elite grades out of age and when you have passed Compulsory 1 you are qualified to compete at the British. So if you if you pass it at eg 13 you go to Espoirs, 15 Juniors etc. Not sure how many years out of age you can go. At least 2 I think maybe more. It is a whole new system and I don't know the details.

Not many girls qualify through Challenge cup and I think this number will go down but it is there as a possibility.

The vast majority of girls enjoying gymnastics never qualify to the British. It is not the be all and end all. Many girls have a wonderful experience in gymnastics without it. Just let your dd enjoy her journey. Starting later will only save the wear and tear on her body!

 

[bogwoppit]

I just can't see that jumping straight into level 3 "in age" is realistic, since that would be next year for DD. From what people are saying doing it out of age will probably not assist DD's elite aims, since she could not get to nationals. So despite the reassurance from iwannacoach about late starters (on the other thread), I'm now beginning to think I truly have screwed her chances up. How on earth do you get through the levels "in age" before Espoir if you start late?

Iwannacoach is from the USA, their system is very different to that in the UK.
You haven't screwed her chances up, your dd is loving gym just let her enjoy it. Let her follow the path that her coaches lay out for her and let her own her own journey, beyond that you cannot do anything.

Focussing so much on this elite goal will just make you miserable. So many kids want elite and do not get there, but they have a blast doing gymnastics.

You have to know that every little girl who watched the Olympics wants to be competing there one day. They all have those dreams. Let your dd have those dreams. But you have no control over how she progresses in the gym at all.

There are late starters who go far fast, but they tend to be kids who just pick up skills very rapidly and have natural good form. You do not see many of those.