WAG Xcel and JO

[Deleted member 18037]

So what? Part of sports is learning how to be a good sport. Let them lose their patience, and then learn the lesson that it's the right thing to do. My kid loses her patience with Math but she doesn't get to get out of it. And "not so nice and fun when you don't win"? Welcome to the real world. We have GOT to get these kids out of the participation awards mentality. As a manager in a large organization it's EASY to see someone's age come through because the participation generation constantly wants to be rewarded simply for showing up. Welcome to life kid, sometimes you don't win. And THAT'S OK. Because that's where you learn, pick yourself up, and improve.

I have no idea what the heck you are talking about. As it relates to what I said.

I said I get its about learning good sportsmanship and patience.

I am not sure where you possibly got the impression I think everyone needs an award. I don't and you don't have to guess how old I am. I am 55. I am from the generation of not everyone gets rewards, its OK to use red pen and grade hard. You don't get a trinket, flowers for every meet/recital you attend. And you don't tell your kids every little thing they do is wonderful.

You are preaching to the choir.

And I said the awards part of the meet is usually too stinking long. Really when the awards take an 1 and 1/2 hours, they are too long. Period.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

Not the point. I'm fine with my kids losing to other kids better than they are. My goal for them is be better at the end of the season than they were at the start - but that has little to do with scores. It's about being able to do a back handspring at the end of the season you couldn't do at the beginning or finally staying on the beam for your back walkover, learning a squat on, etc.

That said, there should be some apples to apples. Some people are using the Xcel program as an alternative to JO because their families can't put in 15-20 hours a week of gymnastics practice and others are using Xcel as an alternative to JO Compulsories. These kids shouldn't have to compete against each other. It's unfair. When a team takes the first 6 places in each age division it's wrong.

I think that hardly any gyms are using Xcel the way it was attended and it does skew things.

And I have been to many a JO meet where a team takes the sweeps the top places in their age groups.

 

[skschlag]

I think that hardly any gyms are using Xcel the way it was attended and it does skew things.

And I have been to many a JO meet where a team takes the sweeps the top places in their age groups.

very true. one gym here just took 9 of the 12 spots to nationals. They are a great gym with tons of hours, homeschool program, lots of coaches. Most of our kids will never be able to compete with that. Few will..

 

[Deleted member 18037]

And I have also heard from many a parent and coach, within JO, how unfair it is to compete against gyms who train kids long hours vs gyms that train less.

It is what it is to a degree.

I don't think there should be so many age groups with in a level. Really have a Jr/Sr or a min/max and forced score out move on for the level at the end of the season. You are either a Level 3, 4, 5 and on. If you can do the skills age really shouldn't be a factor. And if you have scored out and the season is done you move on. If you are not meet ready at the next level, you train until you are. If you are a weak Level whatever fine do another year, but if you score high enough to score out, one season and done. You shouldn't be coming back to the same level to get 38s and 39s

But then there wouldn't be so many medals, trophies, banners. And gyms like banners good PR. And the parents writing the checks like bragging on their kids and happy kids and ribbons make them happy.

Much of it is about money.

edited to add it appears we cross posted skschlag

 

[profmom]

Since it's all USAG's house, they can make the rules. Would it help at all if USAG mandated 1) no simultaneous XCel and JO competition in the same season -- you have to pick one or the other and you can't move to the other side until the season, however it is defined, is over and 2) stricter mobility rules to prevent JO girls from competing "down" in XCel?

Around here it tends much more to be one or the other. The introduction of L6 as an optional level took care of the "we don't wanna do old L6 so we'll do prep opt instead" problem, and most of the gyms with large numbers of L10 compete new L5.

As for teams that are in effect sandbagging, yeah, it stinks, but hopefully the kids who are winning and those who are not winning because of them understand what's going on. There's a boys' team around here that's notorious for it -- they almost ALWAYS win the compulsory team awards at states -- but the boys can look ahead and see that this comes at the expense of producing outstanding optionals.

LDW, the idea of a mandatory move up is nice for lower level compulsories, but mobility as you get higher up becomes much more about skills than scores. You can have a lovely, talented gymnast who's scoring 37s-38s but should not move up because of issues with required skills for the next level. The coaches may be making the right choice for a gymnast's retention and longevity by having that kid repeat, even if the level does not appear to be challenging. If a kid is having vestibular issues, sitting out a meet or two while waiting for the skill to come is fine, but some of these issues can last for months or even years, and it's not necessarily a good thing to bench a kid for that long, as it raises the stakes enormously and counterproductively.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

LDW, the idea of a mandatory move up is nice for lower level compulsories, but mobility as you get higher up becomes much more about skills than scores. You can have a lovely, talented gymnast who's scoring 37s-38s but should not move up because of issues with required skills for the next level. The coaches may be making the right choice for a gymnast's retention and longevity by having that kid repeat, even if the level does not appear to be challenging. If a kid is having vestibular issues, sitting out a meet or two while waiting for the skill to come is fine, but some of these issues can last for months or even years, and it's not necessarily a good thing to bench a kid for that long, as it raises the stakes enormously and counterproductively.

I think you are right. I think when you get to optional levels when you can up the difficulty within a level and keep challenging its different. When your routines can be different and tweaked from one season to the next, sure

And also I didn't say 37-38. I said 38-39s. If you are starting the lower compulsory level at 39s, its time to move on. Compulsory level you are not doing anything new from this season to next. And if you are ever hoping to move up, you better be up training skills. Competing isn't adding to making your next level better if you are a compulsory level hitting 39s give or take.

And there is also the danger of boredom too. I can tell you my daughter is very strong at her level. She has had it with the pancake vault. Fortunately she has her kip, so she is moving, but if she didn't I just can't imagine having her do level 3 routines for another season. Mentally it would not be good for her.

I would be battling her coaches who like their team banners (cause it helps revenue). Happened to a girl last year. They wanted to keep her back at Level 2. Partly because she was a weaker L3 (and that could affect team scores), but would be an excellent L2 upping team scores. The mom insisted she be moved up and she was. She did rather well at L3, 12 weeks makes a difference at that level.

And yep I get it USAGs house, USAG rules. And don't think revenue doesn't factor into the decisions because it does.

 

[Quadqueen]

And there is also the danger of boredom too. I can tell you my daughter is very strong at her level. She has had it with the pancake vault. Fortunately she has her kip, so she is moving, but if she didn't I just can't imagine having her do level 3 routines for another season. Mentally it would not be good for her.

Well then, she will certainly continue to be bored with vault, because they do a front handspring for at least three levels....boredom is part of the sport!

 

[Deleted member 18037]

Well then, she will certainly continue to be bored with vault, because they do a front handspring for at least three levels....boredom is part of the sport!

She has been pancaking for nearly 5 yrs.

And she will have time to get good at front hand spring, peak and then become bored with it .
And I also have to say, I was shocked that they do the FHS for three levels.

And she will be doing other things on the other events.

Part of the reason why our gym has them do both Xcel and JO (and yes I know not using the way it was intended) is help with boredom, they get to do their own floors with their own music. Tweak their beam.

 

[raenndrops]

Well then, she will certainly continue to be bored with vault, because they do a front handspring for at least three levels....boredom is part of the sport!

Al L6, she can start doing 1/2-1/2 vault Then the handspring is only 2 levels

 

[twinmomma]

I have no idea what the heck you are talking about. As it relates to what I said.

I said I get its about learning good sportsmanship and patience.

I am not sure where you possibly got the impression I think everyone needs an award. I don't and you don't have to guess how old I am. I am 55. I am from the generation of not everyone gets rewards, its OK to use red pen and grade hard. You don't get a trinket, flowers for every meet/recital you attend. And you don't tell your kids every little thing they do is wonderful.

You are preaching to the choir.

And I said the awards part of the meet is usually too stinking long. Really when the awards take an 1 and 1/2 hours, they are too long. Period.

You said that awards weren't fun when you weren't the kids winning. That's what I was talking about. Pretty clear statement in my book, but maybe I took you wrong. But I'm also coming from a marching band background. A big competition could have awards ceremonies lasting an hour and a half. Again, so what? You are the one on this board constantly saying things like it's part of the sport and it is what it is. Long awards are just part of the sport. It's an individual sport with lots of girls in it and meet directors are balancing what's best for the kids with what gets teams to come back the next year because it's a fundraiser for the gym. Everyone wants their little Susie recognized for hard work. Most of our meets award 50% or 50% plus one. Does it mean we have to sit through 12 other categories sometimes? Yep. IMO it's no different than waiting four hours for your kid to get to compete on average 5 minutes total.

 

[Quadqueen]

Al L6, she can start doing 1/2-1/2 vault Then the handspring is only 2 levels

I've never seen gyms here compete this in JO.

 

[raenndrops]

Our YMCA Zone USED to have Mobility Scores with MANDATE scores... of course, they were set too low, so they at least made it so that it was an AA score (but with a minimum on EACH event in the SAME meets that you made the AA... and it had to be done 2x).
L3... 33.0 (8.25 each event)
L4... 34.0 (8.00 each event)
L5... 33.0 (7.75 each event)
L6... 34.0 (8.25 each event) - never implemented due to cancellation of Mandates
L7... 34.0 (8.00 each event)
L8... 34.0 (8.00 each event)
L9... no mandate because our Zone doesn't compete L10
XLG... 34.0 (8.25 each event)
XLP... no mandate because our Zone doesn't compete XLD (BUT, if they get 35.0 consistently, they petition them into JO 6/7).
We found that at YMCA Nationals, although our state represented approximately 1/2 of the gymnasts there, we were not getting even close to 1/2 the awards.
This was because of our Mandate scores and having to move girls up (plus some states end their season in December and the girls are working on the next level for 6 months before competing at Nationals), so Last year at a Zone meeting at the beginning of Nationals, they did away with the Mandate Scores. That allowed a couple of our girls to repeat their levels and upgrade skills without being in a level they were not ready for.

 

[raenndrops]

I've never seen gyms here compete this in JO.

https://usagym.org/PDFs/Women/Rules/J.O. Code of Points/appndx03_level6_8vaultvalues-2013.pdf

We have girls that compete 1.105 and 1.206 ... and my YG, competing Xcel Gold is working on 1.106.

 

[profmom]

Most JO programs around here don't train the half on/half offs because they aren't much help in progressing to the Yurchenkos and Tsuks that dominate optionals. I guess there's an argument to be made for a Yami if the plan is to progress to a hand front (though I know many people hate Yamis), but very few girls compete hand fronts. The philosophy among gyms in this area seems to be that it's better to spend the vault rotations training for the flipping vaults and just tuning up and competing the handspring once it's been mastered.

IMHO, the best gyms use JO compulsory levels as USAG intended them -- the place to learn and perfect important foundational skills that will form the basis for strong optional routines later on. DD stunk at old L6, but I'm glad she did it and just got through it. Making it to optionals was a lot more meaningful for her because it marked a real and significant advancement in the sport, and I think she benefited from the pickiness of that last compulsory year. And even with really good gymnasts who are progressing well, compulsories shouldn't be boring if the coaches are helping the kids to understand the importance of strengthening foundational skills. (Why, yes, DS did spend his entire rings rotation last night working on swing mechanics! As did his optional teammates, including L9 going to nationals in a few weeks!)

As for the parent who's bored with watching the same routines and listening to the same music, well, that is a different problem!

 

[Deleted member 18037]

You said that awards weren't fun when you weren't the kids winning. That's what I was talking about. Pretty clear statement in my book, but maybe I took you wrong. But I'm also coming from a marching band background. A big competition could have awards ceremonies lasting an hour and a half. Again, so what? You are the one on this board constantly saying things like it's part of the sport and it is what it is. Long awards are just part of the sport. It's an individual sport with lots of girls in it and meet directors are balancing what's best for the kids with what gets teams to come back the next year because it's a fundraiser for the gym. Everyone wants their little Susie recognized for hard work. Most of our meets award 50% or 50% plus one. Does it mean we have to sit through 12 other categories sometimes? Yep. IMO it's no different than waiting four hours for your kid to get to compete on average 5 minutes total.

Lets be clear. I said awards are more fun in general when you win. Not my kid or any particular team. Back to old global you, not specific you. They are more fun when when you win. It is more fun to pay attention when you have team members in the category. Don't see kids crying with unhappiness because they won. I do see them crying when they don't. I don't see parents groan and roll their eyes "That kid again" when its their kid. I have never seen parents in the audience when they see a strong team go yippee our kids are gonna lose today. It is more likely a coach will hold a gymmie back to be more successful at meets (read that as winning) then move a kid up. Of course its more fun when you win. That's why they go out 50% and have participation awards. Something is better then nothing.

And if that all someone is in the sport for, mostly likely it won't be a long ride.

And while I get the it is what it is and part of the sport. I don't have to like it. All I said was I don't like it.

I will also be very happy not hear Level 3 floor music next year, doesn't mean I'm bashing any Level 3 girls. And I am sure by the time I get to meet 2 or 3 of Level 4, I will be over that music too, if it takes that long.

And I don't like to argue for the sake of arguing so I'm done with this portion of the program.

 

[Quadqueen]

I understand they are allowed, @raenndrops, I just said I don't see them in JO. It is for the reason profmom cited - they are not progressive toward flipping vaults, although I see where they would be a nice option in XCel or for kids who won't reach level 8.

 

[GYM0M]

I would rather stick pins in my eyes, then sit through 7 divisions of Level awards.

Really sometimes its seems like the awards take longer then the meets and that's with just 3 or 4 age groups.

Just for clarification, the state stream described, with 7 divisions, is pretty comparable to JO age division for the level. It's not uncommon for there to be 6 divisions within JO with upwards of 20 girls per division.

 

[aerials]

Well, someone has to come last. So I tell them so what, if you're last make your next goal to not be last. You'll have to have success somewhere, sometime.

I like your attitude!

 

[cassafrass]

Aa

 

[cassafrass]

^^^^°sorry- don't know how that happened!