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Air sense

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leapfrog

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I have a strange question.
When you are doing a skill ( for example, a back full), are you supposed to know exactly where you are at all times, or just when taking off or landing? can you usually see clearly the entire way around? do you know how high you are?
my coach is always confused when I try to explain what i focus on when doing a skill, and i was wondering what she was expecting.
 

JBS

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Yes...you should know where you are and how high you are all the time. What you see depends on the skill and how fast you are flipping and twisting. Slower skills such as a back full you should basically see clearly the whole way...this will come with time and practice.

Not a strange question at all.
 

MaddieLynn

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"Air sense" really is the best word for it. You will not be able to see clearly every single second of the time, but with enough repititions you'll be able to "feel" it. It was confusing to me too until I developed it. Just keep trucking and one day you'll realize exactly what they were talking about!
 

leapfrog

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Oh... Then i think i might have a problem.
I have been doing flipping and twisting skills (layouts, fulls, tucks, etc) for quite a while (fulls for at least a year in total, tucks and layouts for about 3-5) and I have never been able to do that. my eyes unfocus as soon as i start rotating. Baranis I can do this for, but nothing else.
i must have some air sense because i compete fulls and am working rudis on tramp and double-fulls off DMT. I can feel what i am doing and usually go by timing, but i can never see past 'brightest way is up', and this is working less and less as the skills get harder.
Is there a way for me to intentionally learn it?
I also have some sensory issues and that probably has something to do with it.
 

JBS

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Practice spotting certain objects during the skill...like the X on the tramp...or put orange cones in various places.
 

coach4life

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There's also a good amount of experienced involved here. I asked the same thing the first day I started doing fulls (I was making them but getting lost in mid-air). I was told it comes with time, and it does! Just keep practicing them and soon it should become easier both to spot and to know exactly where you are in the air.
 

dunno

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the 2 systems of the body in use for your question, and it is not a dumb question, is haptic and optic sense. and guess what? both are part of the vestibular system. haptic is the sense of touch and optic is your eyes.

some kids have one or the other to some to better degree. and some kids have both to a very high degree.

and then these 2 systems are tied to memory.
 
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LucyTRA

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It depends on the skill how much you actually SEE... I'm working rob roy at the moment (back landing, 2 1/2 twists to back) and let me tell you, if you're going to fit 900 degrees of twist into 180 degrees of somersault, you aint gonna see much. I can feel where I am in the air, and I SEE at the start of the twist and at the end so I know exactly when I'm going to land and what I'm landing on, but I certainly don't see all the way round, its too fast. In a back full you should probably be going high enough and therefore slow enough that you can see, but if you cant see you will be able to feel... it will come with time.

It might also be a memory thing. I'm speaking form personal experience only here, but when I was doing back double twist to front in preparation for rob roy, I didn't think I was sighting simply because I couldn't remember that I did. However, when I concentrated really hard on it, I could call out when I saw a certain marker, so I know I definitely saw it, but afterwards I just wouldn't really remember. My coach put more than one mark out, and I would shout mid-move when I saw one, but afterwards I wouldn't remember which one I saw. Ive coached quite a few people that had this kind of mid-move amnesia!
 
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Tumbellina82

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I've never done hard enough skills for it to come up but I think what Lucy says is right. When what you are seeing is changing that fast you might physically see it but you are not going to have time to process it so I think that's why you might not remember afterwards. Then as you get more experienced doing the move and you might gradually get better at interpreting what you are seeing because it is more familiar and you learn to associate it with the feeling of doing the move.

It might help to think before the skill about what you expect to see and what the key point are.

You are always going to see more at the beginning and end of the skill because you are rotating slower.

Air sense isn't just about what you can see but also what you can feel. You can have a sense of direction, movement and acceleration even if you are blindfolded. That's not to say you should close your eyes, use all the information you have got, but you should have an idea of how high you are based on the feeling of the movement. It is interpreting the information that is the tricky bit and that is something you learn with practice.
 
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dunno

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and that information is all being interpreted by/thru the vestibular system. and no 2 people are the same. :)
 
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iwannacoach

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and that information is all being interpreted by/thru the vestibular system. and no 2 people are the same. :)
So are you saying that some may need to "see things," and others need to feel them, and some of both for another bunch of folks.

I think I did most of my stuff by braille.
 

dunno

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optic and haptic are 2 components of the vestibular system. proprioception, the 'feel' of the hands and feet are important also. this gymnastics stuff, as you well know, is based in science and is more complicated than people know or understand. :)
 

Gymishome

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this gymnastics stuff, as you well know, is based in science and is more complicated than people know or understand. :)
And you can't be a great coach without knowing it. There's coaches that have never even heard of the vestibular system...but sometimes I just think I'm a nerd!
 
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iwannacoach

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So are you saying that some may need to "see things," and others need to feel them, and some of both for another bunch of folks.

I think I did most of my stuff by braille.
I'm shocked!!!! You mean I can't be a good coach by screaming go harder, point you toes, your legs look like noodles, and stop cheating???

Do I really have to understand why the apple hit Newton on the head, and now it seems I need to understand there are limits to what a kid's body can do........ and.... and..... Forget it, I gotta get back on my cell phone, right after I get another cup of coffee and chat up with the compulsory coach about the movie I saw this weekend. Hmm, maybe after that, and the cell phone, I'll google vestibular. Well.... maybe that can wait until next year.;):D:D
 

JBS

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Hey...I'm reading this right now...on my iPhone...while leaning on the vault table...drinking my coffee.
 

Chalky

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Looks like you might have a rather expensive desk there JBS ;)
 
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