confusion over gymnast's progression to level 4

[Deleted member D3987]

Her girl is 9 years old and trains 4 hours a week at prep op level and has her L4 skills. Please illuminate us, parents love the inside scoop. THanks ahead of time.

okay bogwoppit, here goes.

usag has 77,000 athlete registered members. this is not indicative of other programs that exist all over the USA that have nothing to do with USAG. there are many. and they are gymnastically irrelevant.

of the 77,000, over 60,000 are levels 1-6 on the women's side. then you have boys, tramp and tumble, acro & rhythmic. there about 2200 registered boys at all levels.

last count there were 4500 gymnastics schools. for level 10 women's nationals for example, top 7 from each group X 8 age groups= 56. 56 X 8 age groups=440 athletes. some regions are not able to fill 56 spots. and they couldn't borrow enough gymnasts from other regions that had scored a minimum 34.00 AA to meet the rule. therefore, there were not 440 athletes competing, but less. the top is diminishing and the low is increasing every year for the last 5. at level 9 they went to 16 age groups. why? so your child had a better chance of getting an award. the dumbing down of academics and sports began about 10 years ago. competition be damned. and 'up' with achievement awards...USAG visionaries saw this coming as far back as 1985. hence, the level 1-10 system and other programs were born in 1989 competitive season right after the seoul olympic games. i'll expound on this further downthread.

so, looking at the industry as a whole [and i've given just a couple of statistics] and if you own a gym, and you want to be very profitable, have low coaching overhead, have no stress of having to succeed or exposure to injury and lawsuits...then level 1-4 is the way to go. and this is what is currently happening. then there is cheer for tumbling, cheer only gyms, mom/dad nights out, open gyms, rock climbing walls, lock ins, etc; gyms have become profit centers.

what does this mean? in the time it takes a parent to figure out that their dd is going no place she will then be to old. 9 is not old. 9 is a good age to get serious and get moving with training.

you insinuated that your child is hungry. then get her in a gym where there are level 8's, 9's, & 10's. let them evaluate your daughter's potential and see if you might be spinning wheels anyway.

in my mind, any gym is good for kids to be exposed to gymnastics. and they all have reasonable coaching staffs. but if you are really looking to advance, and you are at a gym that has 100 level 4's & 5's, some 6's, a couple of 7's, zero 8's, zero 9's, & zero 10's...

and to parents, gymnastics is the hardest sport your child will ever endeavor. they should not be competing at the ages that you have your children competing. but you want us like soccer. and 9 year olds should not be training excess hours because you've been told this will progress them, or because YOU think that this is what must be done. you want us like soccer. they should be training consistently and year round. but because parents drive an industry like ours, they have pushed our sport to areas that are unacceptable from a training/competitive standpoint. and the parent wants their cake...and go on forever vacations and then ask for tuition discounts cause you don't want to pay, and you don't want your child to train in the summer, or holidays when necessary, or forego birthday parties and sleepovers when your children are 14. so a gym could be trying the best they can but will never be able to hire a high level coach cause your actions will will not support such. then when you come back in september, you expect to have your child right back on that team. and you have been doing this for years. you go to your summer homes for 3 months every summer. you've been doing this for 5 years. 5 years X 3 months every summer is !15! months of training that your child has missed. then you complain when she is still a level 5 and now drives a car and can drive herself to level 5 practice. and she is the only carpool that transports other girls on the level 5 team that are 7 year olds...

back in the day, competing on a team anywhere was a privilege. now TEAM is either a club requirement or that of the parent. and if they are not on a team then someone must be doing something wrong. and we have to give lower level gymnasts achievement awards so that they 'feel' good about themselves.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

sorry, accidently hit enter. i have to go now anyway. i'll post more later. unless of course you 'shoot' the messenger...

when i get back i'll touch on the other profit center named prep op. and other stuff. and even a bit of history of the club industry.

 

[coachmolly]

Situations like your daughters break my heart because I was in her exact position as a gymnast. The gyms I trained at did not let just anyone on the team, I worked hard for that honor and earned it. I was not the most talented kid (by a long shot), but I loved gymnastics and wanted it much more than anyone else in the group. I was 9 when I started competing level 4 and spent 2 years there, then did 1 at level 5 as an 11 year old before switching gyms. I was dedicated and worked hard, but some serious psychological issues really hindered my progress in various ways.
I headed to gym number 2 as an 11 year old who had completed her first level 5 season after 3 meets. The head coach at gym #2 did not even look at my gymnastics, he look at my age and size and immediately placed me in the more recreationally geared group. I was better than some of the kids in the more advanced group, but not given a shot because of my age and size. I begged and pleaded, as did my parents, to let me at least give the group a try, but the head coach would have none of it. I would go to intensive training camps and the coaches there would see my drive, dedication, and potential despite my shortcoming as far as natural ability but then it would be back to the gym and more of the same treatment by the head coach.
I ended up competing USAIGC, much like prep-op, and I scored well and placed well but was not happy. I was not being challenged and I knew that my progression was being slowed. I would have much rather been competing level 7 and not winning as many medals than competing USAIGC with kids just in it for fun.
At 15 I moved to another gym and I regret that I did not spend my entire gymnastics life there. They saw I was older, saw I was not as naturally talented as their other kids, but gave me a fair shot. They had an MDL team, but chose to put me on their USAG team because of my determination and work ethic. They devoted so much time and attention to me, even though I wasn't going to be getting a college scholarship or putting them on the map of prestigious gyms any time soon. I have so much respect for those coaches, and ones like them for giving me, and other kids who want to do gymnastics more than anything, a fair shot.
Don't let your daughter be held back by whatever unfair requirements this gym is setting for their level 4 team. If she works hard and can do the skills, there is no reason she should not at least be given a shot.
At my gym, if a gymnast wants to compete level 4 they are placed into the training group. They are then given a list of skills which they need to learn before they compete. It's cut and dry, no questions asked.
With this being said, I agree with dunno that not every kid is cut out for team gymnastics. When I was competing, being picked for the team was such an honor, now anyone whose parents are pushy enough gets to be put on the team and I certainly do not adhere to that practice. However, I do believe that if your child has the skills and works hard, they should be given a shot at achieving THEIR goals, not the ones the gym pushes on them.
Sorry this is so long, it's just something I feel very strongly about.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

well stated coach molly. regretfully, i'm to tired to type tonight. maybe tomorrow.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

in the late 1800's, sokol [czech] brought their brand of gymnastics to the usa. just a short time later the turners [german] brought theirs.

as the railroads, and the building thereof, moved westward so did the czech's and germans. they began their programs in the universities. as all immigrants of the past, those that came were laborers from those countries which did their brand of gymnastics.

as they married, then had children, those children went to university to continue their education. those that had children before they came over were those that saw their children become adults and begin to teach gymnastics and the first versions of physical education at the university level. as those railroads moved west, so did the gymnastics. more and more of the immigrant children and grandchildren [approx 4 generations back] went to university to study. by the early 1900's, gymnastics was part of the P.E. curriculum. it was not modern gymnastics as you all know it today, but very advanced physical education, and 2 different brands that were brought together as 1. gymnastics in the US was born.

by time i reached the 3rd grade as an 8 year old, gymnastics had evolved downward thru the ranks from college to elementary school. this was 1964 and the last competitive year of 'swinging rings'. gymnastics was a unit in the PE curriculum in most states by this time.

i learned during those times from my mentors that we had lost alot of 'famous' gymnastics people and teachers to world war 2 and then the korean conflict. many of those people came from that wave of immigrants that brought us gymnastics. and gymnastics as a whole was interupted during those times. the same can be said for europe as they were the first center of war.

during this era, all men's and women's olympic teams came from the universities. there was no such thing as a 14 year old olympian in gymnastics. the men were grown men. the women were grown women. and in alot of cases, they were married with children. they also had full time jobs.

the 1st stand alone private gymnastics club, and born of capatalism and the free enterprise system, was gymnastics unlimited. it opened in 1968. it was located in addison, illinois and was owned by a university of iowa [holzoepfel and pond] graduate by the name of barry keeley. he is still a fan today i might add and you may see him at large invitationals selling these bicycle/tricycle looking things.

up until this time all gymnastics programs had some affiliation with some other organization. turners, sokol, ymca/ywca, etc; there were some programs even run out of churches and vfw halls! many of the names you might be familar with today, grossfeld's, fie, coco's, mulvihill/metheny, valentine, giolombardo, kathy rigby's coach whose name has slipped my mind, and others were all affiliated. in fact, the last olympic team to be made up of our school system was 1976. 1980 and beyond were all what you know today as produced by the private club system.

prior to 1964, the aau was the governing body for practically all things sports in the usa. this included olympic sports. the ncaa was not even formed then but was in its infancy. in 1962 , frank bare and a host of gymnastic others sued the aau, and petitioned the usoc, to become the olympic governing body for gymnastics. the short version is that they succeeded. the organization was named usgf. i give you the short version as the book on this subject is about 100 pages and it took 2 years to come to fruition. i can't list every single name involved in this fight but i am endeared to and respect all of them.

so, as i was beginning gymnastics in 1964, frank bare was in arizona collecting the best minds in gymnastics. these were the visionaries of modern gymnastics. these were the people that glen sundby wrote about in 'modern gymnastics'. these are the same people that i owe a debt of appreciation to for what i became as an adult. and so do the rest of you if you are in gymnastics today!

my generation was of the kennedy era. ask what you could do for your country. and that's exactly what parents did in that time. and it extended to barry and his gym. they constantly asked what they could do to help him in any way to help him grow his school. remember that the parents of that time included mine, and they were exposed to gymnastics in their school system in new york when growing up. people at that time knew that gymnastics was going to be the 'next great thing'.

and to you parents of today. my parents were poor at that time. AND i have a sister that was an elite gymnast in the middle 70's. 2 gymnasts in a family with 3 other children. so, my mom and dad did not have the PRIVILEGE of hanging out at the gym and being a nuisance. it was before the women's movement but my mom worked full time also. they dropped us off and picked us up. and most families had carpools just as they do today. the only difference back then was that parents could actually COUNT ON other parents in their carpool. parents during this time did not MICROMANAGE every facet of their child's life. and we could ride our bicycles all over without the fear of being abducted. and we stayed out at night tumbling until dark without the fears of boogeymen lurking in the bushes. we came in at night when we were tired. and our parents NEVER asked us how practice was going. they just wanted to know that we were having fun and learning something. there was no other agenda that they had than that. and if you came home and complained at all? the only response you were met with was "then quit".

the early 70's brought more gymnastics schools. it was the early 60's though that really kicked gymnastics in the butt. and it came from europe again. the communist manifesto. they must show the world they are the best in sports thereby showing the world that communism is best! but this twisted ideology really did kick start the next gymnastics generation. 1968 was kathy rigby. good start. but 1972 brought us olga korbut. then 1976 nadia comaneci ushered in the huge tidal wave of gyms opening across the country. and of course marcia frederick winning bars at world championships that same year was icing on the cake for american gymnastics. her coaches were muriel grossfeld and don peters. for most of you, you know don went to scats in huntington beach shortly thereafter. scats opened in 1972 and was parent owned but parent uninvolved. they left their coaches/hires to do what they knew how to do.

i opened in 1977 fresh out of college. modest gym with all the equipment both men's and women's. gyms were all gyms. there were no birthday party rooms. no inflatables. no PARENT [nuisant] OBSERVATION AREAS, etc; it was a great time in gymnastics for everyone. it was also post vietnam and our country saw a period of economical growth and stability and of peace and quiet from war. the hippies got married and moved out of their communes and into homes and the black panthers went into politics and moved into the government.

by this time usgf was really taking off. frank bare and all the other gymnastics enthusiasts were really growing the industry and they eventually moved to indianapolis where they reside today. in the early 90's they also added the name USA gymnastics to their acronym. this was a usoc directive as they wanted all olympic governing bodies to begin the acronym with USA and their respective olympic sport. you will still hear the oldtimers refer to the organization as usgf.

tuitions were about $25 per month back in the 60's. time i opened they were $45. gymnastics unlimited was approx 6,000 square feet and rent was $225 per month. time i opened with 5500 square feet rent was $700.00. liability insurance? there was no such thing for clubs in the 1st generation. you see, there was no sports tort. you didn't have parents running around suing the sport because their child broke a wrist or wasn't moved up in a class. time i opened there was insurance. $50,000 liability policy. no medical. and $430 per year to boot.


okay, i plumtuckered out now. time to break. i'll revisit soon.

 

[Claire]

Thank you for taking the time to write this. Please continue. I am still a newbie to gymnastics as a whole and I find this very interesting.

 

[gymjourneymom]

Thanks Dunno, for sharing all of you knowledge & experience with us! I love to learn! Please type more when you can...it's like reading a book & I'm ready for the next chapter.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

i began coaching in 1972 as a junior in high school. my sister was turning 9 at the time. the exact same age that i began gymnastics. and usgf had a level system then for both boys and girls. class 3 compulsory , class 2 compulsory & optional, class 1 compulsory & optional. elite was the top and they had compulsories also. not all that smoke and mirrors stuff they have today. and class 3 optional came along later.

trampoline and tumbling were run by another organization usta. then ustta. usag has since taken them in house as well as acro, and rhythmic.

the first competition i participated was in the fall of 1964. i was now 9 exactly. i competed in tumbling on a 70 foot mat, trampoline, p-bars, and pommel horse. why not the other events? because that is all they could collect for this meet. it was held in chicago at the old armory which is now called navy pier, and the home of the igi chicago style meet. for historical value, the 1st gymnastics competition held on usa soil was held at university of illinois at chicago. you see, most of the immigrants of sokol and turners came to chicago in those late 1800's. why? the railroads and the steel industry which were synonymous to build the railroads. you will find today, and if you ask around, that most gymnastics people got their start in chicago. chicago was the largest enclave of gymnastics people and were a culture all onto their own. it would take to long to connect all the gymnastics dots for you in this setting. trust me, ask around.

so, my 1st competition. it began at 8:00 a.m. on a saturday morning. kids came from all over the country. the last gymnast competed on tumbling at 2:00 monday morning. there were no breaks. there were no breaks for judges. we ate during the competition. and we brought sleeping bags to meets as we spent the night in the competitive venue. and those of us in chicago went to school monday morning. that was that!

today, parents complain because they take their child out of school 1/2 day on a friday. yet their babies are too tired to get up on monday to go to school so they keep them home. they complain the meets take to long. the judges suck and don't like my daughter/son or the gym they go to. they complain about entry fees. they complain about parking. they complain about their coaches, they complain about session times. and on and on and on ad nauseum.

we sporadically vaulted in those days. and we seldom competed on this event. but it was on a buck not on a pommel horse without pommels. a buck was 1/3 the width of a pommel horse. we did squats, straddle's, hechts, and handsprings. the very same vaults done in the olympic games prior to 1972 munich. by then the japanese had arrived. yama****a's, tsukahara's, hecht fulls, and hecht backs. and many of these vaults were being done by the communist block countries also. the buck was steel with a leather cover. no pad. the boys vaulted long ways and the same horse turned sideways for the girls. this also evolved when we went from buck to horse.

we tumbled on panel mats placed on wood or cement. the rings and parallel bars were made of wood. we landed on stacked horse hair mats. and we sprayed nitrotan on rips. yellow colored and 99% alcohol. and today the parents complain when their child gets a small rip, and they don't want them to train because they are afraid they will get 'flesh eating bacteria' or worse 'hiv'.

by time my sister came along, porter, nissen, american, and gymaster had come a long way in manufacturing. by 1972, we had the first versions of crash pads. folding landing mats, and we tumbled on resilite wrestling mats. the vaulting boards were called reuther boards and were made of wood with wood leafs. the beams were still made of wood. but the girls finally had there own manufactured set of uneven bars. before, they just raised one bar on the boys parallel bars. i'm sure some of you have seen the old film footage on youtube. everyone by then was using chalk. there were no grips, but those only made of tape. the girls had a resin tray that they would grind their peds into to make them sticky for beam. no water bottles. just spit. leotards fashioned after those swimming suits of the 50's where the crotch was half way down the thigh. and the men wore a unitard with long white pants. the first uniforms for men were a company called nabholtz. brought to this country by eddie gombos who was a former gymnast at southern illinois university. he outfitted all the men for every olympic team up till 1976. the leos were also imports, but i can't remember the name at the moment. i'd call my sister, but she's sleeping.

the padded beam didn't come along until 1973. they were far and few between. and those that could afford them threw them in their van to bring to competitions. beams then cost approx $225.00 less shipping. today they are $3,000 less shipping. and today when suzy slips off beam by her own devices, the parent complains that they are old and worn, a safety hazard, and if my child gets really hurt i'm going to sue your #@*.

my sister's state meet in 1973. class 3, 2, and 1 combined. she was class 1 with other memorable gymnasts at the time named joan moore, krista canary, a younger amy koopman, colleen casey, traci talavera, and others. her competition began at 8:00 a.m. on a saturday. compulsories ended at 1:00 a.m. sunday. they were all back in the gym bright and early sunday at 8:00 a.m. my sister was the last to compete balance beam at 2:30 a.m. monday. it was held at the mackinley ymca in champaign, urbana. and everyone went to school the next morning. no complaints. not even from the parents who had to go to work the next day. keep in mind that my first meet attracted participants from all over the country. by my sister's time it was only those in the state. yet the meets took the same amount of time. this was due in part to compulsories and that there were now more participants. boy, times have changed.

gotta go now. be back later.

 

[MdGymMom01]

Thanks Dunno for taking the time to write all this! I agree with GJM in that it is like reading a book!! I can totally relate to what you were saying about being a kid and playing outside till it was dark and we came home when we were tired. My parents were never involved in my sports activities and I think they maybe came to one track meet in the 4 years that I ran in high school. They never asked how practices went either. It makes you think about what OUR KIDS are going to complain about when they are our age with kids of their own!!!

 

[Deleted member D3987]

made a mistake. i called my sister and mother. they don't remember the name of the leo company. both do remember that they were awful. and my sister's state meet was 1975. i think i knew that but tend to type faster than my brain gets it out.

prior to 1998, practically all coaches were former gymnasts. there were exceptions. dick mulvihill from champaign, il and now eugene, oregon and married to linda metheny who is former olympian. tom jones [twigs-true winners in God out of ohio] cap caudill in kentucky, and a handful of others. i do not mean to leave anyone out but i don't want to waste time taxing my memory. my point is that everyone went to college. practically everyone majored in PE or some other related science field and most were teachers. then as now, gymnasts and their coaches were the most respected and revered between all the other sports.

and to repeat...gymnastics is the hardest sport your child will ever endeavor. and anyone involved in research in sport sciences has said as much. and practically none of them are former gymnasts. most were never athletes. and of course we have our dr. bill sands. he is the only person in the usa that was a gymnast, then a club owner, then olympic coach with 2 athletes of the ill fated boycott of 1980, to college coach, to Phd, to sport science research scientist. we are lucky to have him. before him, and during both of our times as athletes, there were 2. dr. a.b. frederick and dr. jack biesterfeld. there silent contribution to gymnastics paved the way for the many changes that would take place going from the 60's into the 70's.

then there was mike jacki. attended proviso east high school in maywood, illinois. his father had been a gymnast and later a judge. his younger brother paul was also a gymnast at glenbard east high school in lombard, illinois. mike attended iowa state university and was coached by ed gagnet [pronounced gon yah]. mike went on to form the new american athletic gymnastics company. they began to manufacture some great gymnastics equipment. at the same time, nissen [george nissen who invented the trampoline-yes, an american invention] and porter equipment were in the beginning stages of going out of business. why? lawsuits. tort came to gymnastics in 1976. eventually nissen went out of business[tragic at the time] and porter got out of manufacturing gymnastics equipment. nissen and american were in iowa and porter in illinois. and the guys that started both nissen and american were former illinois boys that had done gymnastics. one being jackie fie's husband.

after aai, mike jacki went on to become the executive director of usgf [usag]. my recollection is 1979. he made great strides leaving his footprint to the changes that evolved in gymnastics. he was quite a visionary and i'm proud to say that we have been friends since we were kids. with his efforts, the 1st safety manual of its kind was published and distributed to membership. at the time, there were approx 800 gym schools in the usa. others noteworthy were fred roethlisberger, stormy eaton, gerald george, jeff austin, george syzypula, bill meade, don tonry, fred turoff, chic johnson and many others. gymnastics was really a boys sport. but because of their efforts, you now have girls gymnastics. and had there never been men's gymnastics? hard to speculate.

so, we then enter what most consider the age of modern gymnastics. that period after after montreal 1976. many changes were taking place. equipment was changing. and usgf began marketing the sport. then for better or for worse depending on who you talk to...marta and bela defected to this country. just before 1984 los angeles, mary lou jumps ship and leaves west virginia. i point this out because prior to this, there just weren't that many gyms to jump to. and gary her coach was never given a chance to fnish what he started. yet gym jumping has been going on for a long time. prior to club, it was college to college. colleges at that time also ran age group programs right out of their college gyms. but, there were several gyms around that could have done just as good a finishing job on mary lou as marta did for her. but the karolyi's had already figured out how to exploit our free enterprise system and ran with it. oh, the american dream!

gotta go now. i'll return later.

 

[MdGymMom01]

I remember when I was in elementary school, say 2nd or 3rd grade (1973 or 1974) we had trampolines in gym class. I remember how fun it was to all take turns on them and even get the chance to be in the belt and do flips and stuff. Then all of a sudden they were banned. Kind of like how my daughter's school doesn't let them play dodgeball and red rover and all those classic PE games that we used to play. She is not even allowed to play tag at recess! What is this world coming to????

 

[gymjourneymom]

Thank you for your posts dunno! I agree that this is quite a different world(in general) then what I grew up in...in both good & bad ways. We are honored to have someone with your history & expertise in the sport, posting here on CB! Please... do continue... I want to know more!

 

[Deleted member D3987]

and to be fair to all coaches. nadia does not owe her allegiance to the karolyi's only. her first coach lives in new york. the only gymnast that karolyi's brought up from scratch was kim zemeskal. and she was coached by several others within that gym until she was ready to be coached by bela and marta. heard of frank neuman? great coach. all their other gymnasts came from somewhere else. alot of peoples hard work...poof! just like that. and several of those gymnasts coaches are not only colleagues but also very good friends. it was gymnastically painful to see what was taking place at the time. and most agree this is where our sport made a turn. mary lou brought us more great exposure. but the turmoil from within was steepening. and i believe that one of my gymnasts come 1988 was completely overlooked because of the turmoil. the same can be said for don peters and bill and donna strauss and stormy eaton [may he rest in peace]. we had alot of good gymnasts at that time. but the public perception was that they were all from karolyi's and that's where you had to be. and the media is responsible for perpetuating this myth.

it is from that point forward of 1988 that our industry changed. couple this with a very bad case of sexual abuse that took place in new york at that time approx 1979. and the first that presented itself publicly in the sport of gymnastics. i can't go into to much info as kids read this board. but you all know as well as i do that the behaviour has been around since Torah times. my mentors have stated that it was never much of a problem as the gymnasts were much older. and it was not spoken about anyway. and then the perpretrators moved to our sector of business if you understand what i mean...

so, we came out of the 1992 and 1996 olympics with the kids being starved to death [not true] the gymnasts being overtrained and suffering terrible injuries[not true] and the movie- little girls in pretty boxes-hogwash. none of this was indicative of the sport as a whole, yet overwhelmingly pontificated upon by the media. if any of you were around then, speak up and tell this community how we were all looked at as pariah's.

so, these were tough times. coaches kinda lost their bearings for awhile. and the new club owners opened facilities that had observations areas larger than my 1st gym! they reasoned that the societal pressures were so great, rather than fight, they would concede. the parents demanded this so that they could monitor abuse of any kind. and we have the phil donaghue show to thank for alot of this. oprah just continued the journey and put former gymnasts on that had an axe to grind. it was a public relations nightmare for everyone involved in gymnastics. of course this backfired as bad things happen today in full view of the parents that were led to believe by various agencies at that time that they needed to monitor the contacts in their children's lives. if you talk to most today, and the parents will be forthright and honest, observation areas have turned into dens of inequity. they are some of the meanest places one can sit. same thing goes for the bleachers at competitions.

another myth. gymnastics stunts your growth. people still say this. for the record, any human endeavor is anthropological by nature. if your child is on the small side, you won't be putting them in basketball. and same goes if you have a 6 foot 6th grader for gymnastics. my sister and i were small. thankfully our parents had the foresight to choose gymnastics. and i played a bit of little league ball in my youth. did i play? no. warmed that bench more than most. the perception was that little boys could not play sports. so, we sat on the bench. didn't have to do that in gymnastics. being small was a clear advantage and all the participants got to practice and then sucked anyway as the sport of gymnastics was so danged difficult then as it is now. so, in that regard, nothing has changed in 40 years. gymnastics was as difficult then as it is today. and everyone sucks when they start. even the biologically gifted ones. and even though the gifted may proceed and progress at an expedited rate because of that biology, don't ever lose sight in that gymnastics shows no bias towards anyone. you will have to work yourself to the bone to become as good as you are able to become. gymnastics does not discriminate across any boundaries. gymnastics says "submit your labor and your will to me" or never progress. gymnastics has always been an art form. always will be. you can't time it. measure it. or make it look pretty early on. this is what separates us from other sports. and i presume that most of you at this site have willingly placed your children into a sport where getting good is measured in 5 year increments. attend a national meet and hear the 17 year old level 10 announce to the audience that she began gymnastics at the age of 3. she has a scholarship to go another 4 years. she just placed last at nationals and she is proudly smiling from ear to ear as only her, her coaches, and the sport of gymnastics can fully appreciate the last place accomplishment. time she graduates college she will have been in gymnastics a total of 18 years. nowadays, that's more time than most adults stay in one job. and at nationals again this year, it was the parent who were disappointed in that gymnast's performance. and they let their daughter know it. and their coaches. pitiful i tell you. and the gymnast went home without a medal or a watch...but fell asleep that night with that same smile on their face. i know. i lived it.

okay, so i went off track just a bit. i'll be back with title 9 and it's affects today on gymnastics. and probably other stuff also. thank you for your indulgence.

 

[mariposa]

wow, dunno. this has been so interesting to read. you need a weekly column here on the CB. thanks for sharing!!!

 

[Deleted member D3987]

title 9 1972, the amateur sports act of 1978, womens gymnastics, and ronald reagan. the convergence of the perfect storm.

there was no competitive gymnastics for girls in the high schools until 1978. illinois being the first and the first to host an actual state competition. in my time 1969-1973 and before, girls did intramurals. as i said, men and women did gymnastics at the university level.

and even most women did not do sports in high school or college because this is not what they were supposed to do. and if they did it was intramural. women were to get married and have children or go to college to become nurses or teachers. it had been this way for ions.

men? well real men did not play gymnastics. we were called queers and femmes. those other derogatory names used today weren't even around then. this had also been a problem forever. we just couldn't get the respect of other sports and athletes even though we were the epitome of what is defined as athlete. gymnasts have stuck together in isolation forever. we were a culture onto ourselves. and we spoke a language that other sports did not have. like flip flop, salto, tsuk, yami, maltese, etc; we felt important because we spoke a foreign language that they did not speak in school. both men and women identified with each other in gymnastics as the girls were called tom boys. gymnasts are the tightest group of athletes anyone will ever encounter.

so, the feds did something right. they enacted title 9. fairness and equity across all sexual lines. for all schools and all universities. you will hear many opinions on title 9 and how it has ruined men's sports at the college level, but later i will give you a small dissertation on what really took place. it was sly and calculated on the part of the college administrators.
anyway, this was just what the doctor ordered for womens athletics.

sorry, i'm being called to cook on the grill. be back soon...

 

[gym mom]

wow dunno great stuff,love reading.

 

[socko]

After reading all the posts by Claire and others, I would seriously investigate taking my daughter to another gym to see if Level 4 is a possibility...and if she's 10 years old, maybe she could get her kip and go right to Level 5. I wouldn't bother with a sit down with the HC of the current gym because they have basically told you that she's never going to be on the USAG compulsory team in that gym by putting her in the Prep Op group. The HC might yes you to death and eventually move her to 4 but don't really expect them to work with her much. And don't bother with private lessons as that only lines their pockets and still doesn't get your daughter much. A half/full hour of private lessons here and there won't make or break her. Our gym's philosophy is that if we're doing our job right coaching , in all the hours they are here, they shouldn't need privates. I know your daughter only goes 4 hours a week but she , for starters, needs a program that gives her more hours in the gym. My daughter was in the gym for 12 hours/week at Level 4. I know you said you were 45 minutes from a decent gym (and so are we) but I can tell you, we were at a closer gym and i felt like I was throwing my money out the window. Sometimes you have to make a drive to get what you need. Good luck in your quest.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

title 9 may have been the real impetus to the women's movement. the feds law said that you had to provide equal dollars for both male and female sports. the national organization for women [now] was founded about 1966/7. but many can argue that it was title 9 that began the impetus for 'equal rights' across all lines. sports has always been a gospel preached for goodwill. both here and abroad. male and female athletes in sports always treated one another with respect as far back as i can remember. we were the same. we trained similarly, we sweat the same, we ripped and bled the same, and we landed short and sprained our ankles the same. i personally believe that if it were not for sports and music that the world would be in conflict every day. sports=some modicum of world peace. and know this from someone that lived it. and i'm speaking for olympic sports only. i lived with, competed with, and witnessed athletes in most olympic sports that i came into contact with in my experience, embrace their own regardless of race, religion, sex, and sexual orientation. and i witnessed the 'black pride' protest in mexico city 1968. and none of the 'white' athletes had a problem with what those protesting had to say. understand? athletes are what make a team, and that team stands or falls together. it has been that way since i can remember. it has been called "i got your back."

so, gymnastics encountered huge growth, both boys and girls, from 1972-1978. there would now be a place for competitive gymnastics other than a world stage, sokol, and ymca. and the club industry was now taking off. and the university programs would evolve from NAIA to NCAA. big business it was going to become.

now the short story on how college admin's exploited title 9. i explain this because you hear men's sports say it has caused their demise at the college level. this couldn't be farther than the truth. but closer to why it is causing the demise of all college sports. i will keep the following numbers small so that i don't get confused. when finished, extrapolate the numbers out by 50 or more mens programs, with an annual savings in the tens of millions range. here goes. the bean counter for the college was now compelled to comply with title 9. a dollar for men, a dollar for women. his college had 10 mens sports programs at a cost of $10 a year. he smiled, and with the wisk of his pen, he cut 9 programs for a budget windfall of $9. he had only 1 remaining program. but that was okay. you see, it was the government's fault...so to comply he added 1 womens sport program at a cost of $1 a year. the college now had complied with title 9. a dollar for men, a dollar for women. and an annual savings of $8. now, extrapolate out the math. and this was before those big television contracts came into play.

how has everyone been buffaloed? the above is easy to see. today, and especially in these current economic times, colleges are cutting sports programs all over the country. it is not just in certain pockets of the country. and those same bean counters are still employed there. they smile...and with the wisk of their pen.... and cut 5 programs from their school. makes no difference what sex. you see, they must comply both directions, and for tacit avoidance of a reverse discrimination lawsuit. title 9 has really given them the power and financial incentive to reduce the overall programs that the college admin's had been looking to reduce for the last 3 decades. and now they do it 'within' the law and without moral conscience.

it took approx 6 years, 1972-1978, for all organizations to comply with title 9. and i may be off a year or 2 either way, but i recall 1978 as the 1st year that a female gymnast received the 1st athletic scholarship. i recall it was either yale [tonry] gymnast lynn kohlmier, now dr. kohlmier practicing in washington state or utah [marsden] megan mccunnif, now megan marsden, greg's wife and head coach . before this time, only men received athletic scholarships. i also recall that the 1st womens program to go by the wayside because of title 9 was southwest missouri state university[chic johnson-may he rest in peace]. my recollection is 1978 as the last year they competed. for the old timers, cheryl diamond who own's a gym with her husband rick in pennsylvania was on this team. colleen casey from twigs [true winners in God] from ohio and coached by tom jones who now owns lake owen gymnastics camp.

during the period 1972-1978, and while everyone was complying with title 9, the feds were designing yet another law. the amateur sports act of 1978. this federal law was to protect the rights of the amateur athlete. if you type in amateur sports act of 1978 in any search engine you can read it in its entirety. it was designed to protect the exploitation of amateur athletes. and a good law at that. the law was enacted in the fall of 1978.

now the race was on for all college sports. and for the progress of olympic athletes to train in their sport and have their rights protected from exploitation. it would take to long explain the abuses going on at the time, and the ones that the feds deemed foreseeable, but suffice that athletes today have it pretty good.

now to one of the problems. as the perfect storm started to rain, and budgets soared, physical education departments began taking huge hits. the dumbing down began at all levels of education. all physical education programs were compelled to be inclusive to all regardless of sex or physical/mental disabilities. special education programs were being mainstreamed into 'regular' curriculum. therefore, the education that my generation received was changing to include activities that no longer required specialized coaches. and gymnastics IS a specialized sport with specialized coaches. i majored in liberal arts with a PE minor. and being a gymnast and future coach, i received a gymnastics education very similar to what our communist block counterparts were receiving. their's was called a 'master of sport' and ours a bachelor of science/art degrees. we received instruction in the college gym, doing hands on gymnastics with coaches/teachers that were either former gymnasts themselves or academics that had come up thru the system from the old immigrant system that i spoke of earlier. and if a gym club was off campus, we went there to not only learn but to work. we also received instruction in biomechanics, kiniesiology, excercise physiology, and the early rudiments of athletic training.

as title 9 steeped itself into college sports, and college admin's began cutting sport programs including olympic sports, the need for specialized training/education began to diminish. when i was in college there were 95 division 1 mens gymnastics programs. today there are 13. conversely there were no programs for women that were not intramural. and at the inception of title 9 there were approx 110 programs for women. i haven't checked this out just yet, but at level 10 nationals several colleges coaches concerned about the current financial health of all college sports programs remarked that they now had 85 womens gymnastics programs. it has been a slow but discerning descent from what everyone thought would take place in regards to growth. remember the university of iowa's mens wrestling program? how about ucla's mens gymnastics program? and now cal state fullerton's and mit's womens team. there are now more women's teams being cut than mens. but when you have 13 mens gymnastics teams and 85 womens gymnastics teams, whose noticing or cares...?

so, as the college curriculum changed for PE majors so did the need for specialized programs that were needed to train future coaches. this erosion began in the early 80's. gymnastics clubs were taking a foothold and figuring out ways to pay specialized gymnastics coaches a living wage. and we were just coming off that boycott of the 1980 olympic games. gymnastics took a hit and was in a lull until 1984. but now, former gymnasts had their academic choices diminished as colleges were cutting the specialized fields. and because of cutting, they no longer could go to the school they thought they would go to as the college dropped the gymnastics team. the future of PE was now changing. and to date, and unless someone comes in with info i'm not aware of, illinois is the only state left where PE is required to receive a high school diploma.

now to ronald reagan, the tech/bus boom, and gymnastics. he told east berlin to take those walls down. so they did. then poland with perestroika. then the soviet union and the end of the cold war. how did this affect gymnastics? ready??

the tech boom looked a viable option for new high school grads. the computer generation. and of course this included former gymnasts that formerly would go into PE or related curriculum. athletes were leaving the sport. this meant no male coaches after college. yet later, the number of females coaching increased. but those same edu. programs i received were no longer there for the females either. and were approaching 1988 and the inception of the usag level system and gymnastics difficulty increasing at the speed of sound. usag saw the chasm being created from the training that coaches formerly received to what they were now receiving. and i will expound later on the implementation of the level system usag designed later and what it has to do with all of this in some way, shape or form.

gymnastics programs in the other countries were funded fully by their governments. the eastern block athletes/coaches were also paid thru a caste system that afforded them a nicer place for their families to live, more bread, more meat, even cars. they were essentially government employees. and 'army' and 'dinamo' and 'round lake' were famous gymnastics training facilities in the former soviet system. east germany had their swimmers and weightlifters. romania their gymnasts., etc; and now, thanks [or not?] to reagan, and what would become the 'global economy' [in a few short years] also moving at the speed of sound, the former eastern bloc countries began to fall apart. and they all had an allegiance and dependency to the soviet union. and now the cold war ended. this created unemployment for sports coaches in those countries [sport coaches were the prestige of their societies above doctors and nuclear physicists] because the soviet government, and all the other countries that were dependent on their financial support, could no longer support their athletic programs. perestoika and the end of the cold war literally demolished eastern block sports. china also had/has a nationalized system, but at the time those coaches could not easily leave their country. it would be a couple of years later that china would open its gates and those coaches could find employment elswhere.

so, what country was their 1st choice to coach. america. after the karolyi and pozar defection, and before perestrioka, the foreign coaches were looking to see how they would fare in our country. after america it was australia, canada, then south america. england gymnastics was so far behind at this time that they weren't considered. but the global economy now sees their national gymnastics program being run by a romanian. and ironically, an american running australia's women's program. her name is peggy liddick and was shannon miller's other coach alongside steve nunno.

so, the foreign coaches began taking coaching positions here in our states. the industry grew and coaching employment deficits were being satisfied by this influx of foreign coaches. and we lost our own training grounds for gymnastics coaches in the US. so the clubs had to do it. now the owner who was a former gymnast had to train not only the deficiencies of the american coaches, but now had to americanize quickly the foreign coaches and address their deficiencies also. not all of them were knowledgable, and in some cases had less knowledge than their american counterparts. remember, when perestroika hit, the foreign coaches lives were disrupted as was their educational training. and training that would not be easy for them to attain at a college in america as they didn't know the language. ask around...it wasn't nor will it ever be easy or seamless. and then, that same owner also had to run the business. and maybe he was married. and maybe he wanted to start a family. get the idea? the perfect storm would now play out. gymnastics kept growing, foreign coaches temporarily filled our coaching shortage, and more clubs were on the horizon. even a layperson could see that if programs were not in place to train coaches...well then...you're going to eventually run out of coaches. and as the 1st generation of coaches aged, then this might even reach an expedited speed of light.

okay folks. that's it for now. more later.

 

[Tumblequeensmom]

there was no competitive gymnastics for girls in the high schools until 1978. illinois being the first and the first to host an actual state competition. in my time 1969-1973 and before, girls did intramurals. as i said, men and women did gymnastics at the university level.

and even most women did not do sports in high school or college because this

Dunno... I've really enjoyed reading your posts (and please DO continue... I'm learning so much).

I DO beg to differ on high school gymnastics though. In Prince William County, Virginia... we definitely had a women's high school gymnastics team the entire time I attended high school. That was1972 through 1976. I've still got the old yearbooks to prove it! I had a few friends on the team and I so desperately wanted to join the team as well... it was NOT to be! Never mind the fact that I couldn't walk a straight line on the balance beam. Not sure exactly when they began the team... as I said, it was already in place when I attended as a freshman in 1972!

Anyway, please do continue with your posts!

 

[Tumblequeensmom]

"illinois is the only state left where PE is required to receive a high school diploma"...

Nope... here in Northern Virginia, most neighboring counties require at least 2 years of PE in order to receive a high school diploma. . .