WAG Level 8 "up to level" standards

[azara]

Hi everyone,

I saw this video the other day of a very talented level 8 gymnast with a stunning beam routine:

I'm not very familiar with JO rules. The routine scored a 9.8, which is awesome, but still I had to wonder whether it is "up to level". The acro connection is a tick-tock to one BHS, where I mostly see BHS-BHS, no extra acro (unless the cool mount counts?), and the dismount is a front tuck. I feel as though most level 8 routines are more difficult, overall. Should this have received a deduction?

Just to be clear, I'm not knocking on this gymnast's performance at all - just using it as an example for better overall understanding of the JO rules. Thanks

 

[raenndrops]

This is from last season (early 2016), before they got more specific about up to level deductions. She does have a switch split, which I think is a C skill, so maybe that was all the judges needed to determine it was up to level. I don't know for sure though.

 

[bookworm]

I'm surprised the score was that high too... but if she met all the requirements, her form was pretty clean so there wasn't much to deduct....skill wise though, it didn't "wow" me like I'd think a 9.8 routine would (specifically the series and dismount).

It looks like she's moved up to Level 9 this year so I would imagine the beam routine will change.

 

[motigymnasticsmom]

This girl is at our gym

 

[Aussie_coach]

That routine would not score so high here. Mainly due to her leaps her change leg leap and both split jumps were not at 180 degrees, it would also not get full start value as the dismount it too easy. Our gymnasts do the front tuck discount in level 5, which is equivalent to the US level 4.

 

[munchkin3]

Maybe a bit high, but less is more sometimes......
If it's clean.

 

[flippingtogether]

This girl is a fantastic beam worker. I love her confidence and poise, and her mount! The 180 splits were not quite there (I don't think) on leaps and jumps, not sure what else were the deductions.
Truthfully, I am still trying to wrap my head around the not-up-to-level deduction - also called the composition deduction, I think?? (please correct me if I am wrong!). Yes, I heard that THIS year is when it is truly going into effect.

I have a 1st year L8 this year, 2 meets down. My DD is a very strong beam worker, but for this year isn't doing the most difficult things out there. Her routine is very artistic and form is great, and includes: full turn, BWO-HS, switch leap-beat jump-straddle jump combo, tick tock, roundoff BT dismount.
So my DD has the needed 4 As and 4 Bs (switch leap I believe is a C but counts as a B) - but she isn't doing the BHS-BHS nor the standing BT that others do. I assume she is getting dinged for her difficulty? It seemed at the first meet she did NOT get dinged, but at the second meet I am thinking she did.
I don't know if she gets any difficulty "credit" with her switch leap, or if it doesn't balance out with more difficult acrobatics (so she gets dinged for not doing the BHS-BHS or standing BT despite having one difficult dance move).
Would love thoughts on what others are seeing out there!

A related L8 question for floor - what would be the difficulty expectation on that event? Assuming dance is all strong and has difficulty, would these 3 passes perhaps get dinged for not being 'difficult enough' this year: (1) layout with 1/2 twist, (2) Front handspring - front lay - front tuck, (3) front handspring - front pike ?

 

[kayjaybe]

This girl is a fantastic beam worker. I love her confidence and poise, and her mount! The 180 splits were not quite there (I don't think) on leaps and jumps, not sure what else were the deductions.
Truthfully, I am still trying to wrap my head around the not-up-to-level deduction - also called the composition deduction, I think?? (please correct me if I am wrong!). Yes, I heard that THIS year is when it is truly going into effect.

I have a 1st year L8 this year, 2 meets down. My DD is a very strong beam worker, but for this year isn't doing the most difficult things out there. Her routine is very artistic and form is great, and includes: full turn, BWO-HS, switch leap-beat jump-straddle jump combo, tick tock, roundoff BT dismount.
So my DD has the needed 4 As and 4 Bs (switch leap I believe is a C but counts as a B) - but she isn't doing the BHS-BHS nor the standing BT that others do. I assume she is getting dinged for her difficulty? It seemed at the first meet she did NOT get dinged, but at the second meet I am thinking she did.
I don't know if she gets any difficulty "credit" with her switch leap, or if it doesn't balance out with more difficult acrobatics (so she gets dinged for not doing the BHS-BHS or standing BT despite having one difficult dance move).
Would love thoughts on what others are seeing out there!

A related L8 question for floor - what would be the difficulty expectation on that event? Assuming dance is all strong and has difficulty, would these 3 passes perhaps get dinged for not being 'difficult enough' this year: (1) layout with 1/2 twist, (2) Front handspring - front lay - front tuck, (3) front handspring - front pike ?

I am just a parent of 2nd year level 8, but at states last year, I think my dd got dinged on floor for not up to level. At least that's what the coach said. She had (1) BHS - LO with full twist, (2) FHS, Fpike, Ftuck, (3) BHS- back layout.

Most kids competing had (1) BHS - 1.5 LO - punch front tuck, (2) FHS, Flayout, Fpike, (3) BHS-LO full twist.

 

[Muddlethru]

It is a clean routine and not a lot if deductions that I can see. The angle of the camera likely does not clearly show the angle of her split leaps but she is likely hitting 180. Her other videos in a better angle shows she is hitting 180 or close enough not to get deductions. Her mount is only a B. I don't think bhs bhs is required in Level 8. However, I don't think she'd get a not up to level deduction.

 

[Gymmommy71]

The "not up to level" deduction is annoying - reminds me of the 15 pieces of flare in the movie Office Space (if any of you have seen it) - if you want to see certain skills, just make the minimum those skills! . And here all of us are guessing what they really want to not deduct for it - I wonder if maybe they want to see a C skill to not give it.

The girl above did have a C in that 9.8 routine, and that mount was impressive, but IMO her all around execution wasn't as perfect as I'd expect to see w/ a score that high - whenever I see scores like that I got to wonder if the judges had just given out a few 9.6's and then this girl came along and was clearly a lot better so they had to give her a 9.8.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

That routine would not score so high here. Mainly due to her leaps her change leg leap and both split jumps were not at 180 degrees, it would also not get full start value as the dismount it too easy. Our gymnasts do the front tuck discount in level 5, which is equivalent to the US level 4.

If they are doing a front tuck dismount, it is not equivalent to US L4, more like US L6.

L4 and L5 dismount is HS, twist.

 

[raenndrops]

If they are doing a front tuck dismount, it is not equivalent to US L4, more like US L6.

L4 and L5 dismount is HS, twist.

Most of their OTHER skills are the equivalent of L4.

 

[ayyyrial]

The things that really stand out to me as not really up to level are:
-straight jump after the switch leap (I imagine this is placeholder for something else she hasn't put in yet)
-the dismount definitely

I wouldn't necessarily think the acro is not up to level because it that fulfills the acro/connection requirement and can lead to upper level connections like tick tock - back handspring - back salto. Not-up-to-level acro is usually stuff like cartwheel - dive cartwheel. The dismount is definitely not up to level - the average L5 can do a passable front tuck dismount. Easier L8 dismounts are usually front or back layouts, gainers, or baranis.

The routine is very short but that just means it's been cleverly composed to fulfilled all the requirements efficiently.

 

[GymCMLA]

How do judges decide the deduction for up to level. Is it if tumbling in general isn't there? Dance/leaps aren't there? Dismount isn't there? Any of the above? All of the above?
I'm curious to see how dd is...they are pretty middle of the road as a team doing the "typical" skills for our region. But routines are short and efficient. Only 2 passes on floor.
I'm assuming she has all her A and Bs.

Beam- full turn, switch leap/beat jump. Bhs-bhs. Body wave to releve, ro-back pike (or lay I don't know) dismount.
Floor- flo-fp, double turn, switch leap, other b leap I can't remember the name of, ro-bhs-full

 

[fuzi]

"Up to level" is a compositional deduction. I think of it as designed to separate the very clean (but basic) routines from those who are competing the hardest skills allowed at their level, while also being very clean.

To clarify, these are the specific "up to level" deductions:
Level 10 bars, releases not up to competitive level (to to 0.20)
Level 8, 9, 10 beam, acro not up to competitive level (up to 0.20)
Level 8, 9, 10 floor, acro not up to competitive level (up to 0.20)

There are other specific compositional deductions for distribution (does the routine start off hard and then get easier? Or vice-versa?), specific combo requirements (missing a dance series on beam? 0.2), and balance (is all the difficulty in dance while the tumbling elements very easy? On bars, does a level 10 have her difficulty in releases with no pirouette elements?).

USAG is working to make the "acro up to level" and "releases up to level" deduction more specific for the judges and coaches. I have to run now, but I can explain what I've learned later if anyone is curious.

 

[flippingtogether]

"Up to level" is a compositional deduction. I think of it as designed to separate the very clean (but basic) routines from those who are competing the hardest skills allowed at their level, while also being very clean.

To clarify, these are the specific "up to level" deductions:
Level 10 bars, releases not up to competitive level (to to 0.20)
Level 8, 9, 10 beam, acro not up to competitive level (up to 0.20)
Level 8, 9, 10 floor, acro not up to competitive level (up to 0.20)

There are other specific compositional deductions for distribution (does the routine start off hard and then get easier? Or vice-versa?), specific combo requirements (missing a dance series on beam? 0.2), and balance (is all the difficulty in dance while the tumbling elements very easy? On bars, does a level 10 have her difficulty in releases with no pirouette elements?).

USAG is working to make the "acro up to level" and "releases up to level" deduction more specific for the judges and coaches. I have to run now, but I can explain what I've learned later if anyone is curious.

Yes!! Would love to learn more - very curious! Thank you.....

 

[Aussie_coach]

If they are doing a front tuck dismount, it is not equivalent to US L4, more like US L6.

L4 and L5 dismount is HS, twist.

Our L5 is equivalent to the US L4, this is just one skill. In the overall sense, most of the skills we require in level 5 are almost identical to your level 4. Except a few minor differences, such as the front tuck dismount off beam. My point is that we consider a front tuck dismount off beam to be used at about the same time the acro on beam is just a cartwheel. Not a difficult dismount.

 

[ayyyrial]

Our L5 is equivalent to the US L4, this is just one skill. In the overall sense, most of the skills we require in level 5 are almost identical to your level 4. Except a few minor differences, such as the front tuck dismount off beam. My point is that we consider a front tuck dismount off beam to be used at about the same time the acro on beam is just a cartwheel. Not a difficult dismount.

I agree that the front tuck dismount is actually totally appropriate to USAG L4 even though it's not in the routine - I remember my teammates and I doing front tucks off beam at this level for fun. It's not very dangerous if you miss, and L4s are usually working towards front tucks for L5 floor, so the drills and technique translate pretty well.

 

[azara]

Okay, it looks like there's a bit of disagreement! Thank you fuzi for your clear explanation. Do you think this routine would have 0.1, 0.2, or nothing taken off?

I quite like the idea of composition deductions. It means gymnasts aren't forced to stay down a level for a season because they don't have the most difficult routines yet, but it still rewards extra difficulty (when well-performed) over the bare minimum. Throughout the season, more difficult skills can be added/swapped into the routines as the gymnast improves.

 

[fuzi]

According to the clinic I was at last weekend, as well as what I got from National Congress in the summer, USAG is moving towards clearer standards for the "acro up to level" deduction. Officially, these are recommendations right now, but once they are in print, they should be the law of the land.

For no "acro up to level" deduction on beam, level 8 needs a B + B flight series, a dismount series or a B stand-alone dismount, and an additional acro element.

The max 0.2 "acro up to level" deduction is for a routine with A no flight + B flight series, a stand-alone A dismount, and no other tumbling. The example given of a routine that would get this max 0.2 dismount is the routine with walkover + BHS or cartwheel + round-off and then a front tuck dismount, with nothing else.

This routine is in the middle. Her series is "weak" with the A no flight + B flight, she does have an additional acro element (the press mount, which is a B), and her dismount is "weak" (A skill, not in series). Based on this, I would take probably take 0.10 in "acro not up to competitive level." 0.15 would also be justifiable.