MAG Skills questions for L4-5: p-bars handstand & ROBHS

[curlymop]

How long should it take to clean up a ROBHS? My 6yo first started doing them unspotted this past June, and they still look really sloppy. I haven't seen much improvement at all since then. I'm guessing it all starts with his roundoff, as he doesn't seem to have much momentum coming out of it. I didn't watch much practice over the summer, so I don't know what drills they used. At this point they're pretty much working exclusively on learning routines. Is this something that will work itself out over time or will it just get harder to fix the longer he does them like this? I'd ask the coaches, but with two boys in gym it seems I'm always stopping the coaches to ask about something. I don't want them to start hiding from me.

Also, DS was making pretty good progress this summer on hitting the p-bar handstand before dismount. About the time it seemed like he had it pretty consistently, he overbalanced once and had a nasty fall. He just tipped right over and slammed his hip into the bar. Coach was spotting at a different set of p-bars and didn't even see it happen. I had sort of forgotten about it since then, but I noticed this past week that he wasn't even attempting it at all. Even when the coach is right there, he has no intention of getting up to a handstand. I asked him why, and of course he said it's because he's scared of falling again. I mentioned it to HC and asked if there was a way to roll out of it safely, and he said yes, they should learn that. Later, I saw AC showing them something that looked like it may be a way to come out of a fall, but it seemed pretty complicated. It involved going over the bars rather than rolling through between them. DS later said he didn't understand it at all. What do I tell him at this point? To only try it when he's being spotted and to trust that his coach will catch him? Or maybe the answer is I should just stay out of it and let him handle it with his coaches...

 

[skschlag]

OUr level 5s were scared of pbar handstands for years after seeing a teammate fall out of one in a meet, and the coach had to catch him. Even when taught to roll out, it took a long time before the would attempt them at all. It did jsut take time and strength.

IMO, and i am not a coach , I think both issues are related to time and strength. As boys get stronger, those things become easier and cleaner. I know some boys, the backhandspring can take a long time. We had one who took years, and even in teh level 5 regional meet, he landed on his head on the first one, went for the 2nd one anway, and landed on his knees (he is now a level 9). His issue was flexibility.

I would say to trust the coaches to help them through this. Both issues will take some time and be frustrating for you and your boys unfortunately. Can they help each other thru this? support each other with the concerns? maybe they have some ideas that will help teh other one?

 

[sce]

Wow, he's doing great, that's some amazing skills for a 6yo! H's got a got of time to make improvement on these skills.

The PBar handstand is scary, even if you haven't fallen. Your little guy has fallen, so he knows it can hurt. Our boys do practice rolling out of them, but it's still scary. To gain more control of the handstand, it takes core strength and the ability to tighten the core to maintain balance, this takes time and experience. Also, yes the backhandspring can take along time to clean up.

FYI - the level 4 and 5 PBar dismount involves going sideways over the bars.

My ds was partway into his level 5 season before he started hitting more than a nominal handstand on a regular basis. He then fell on it in warm-ups at regionals (not a great time to blow your confidence on the skill.) Now, as he's working level 6 and can do a press handstand on PBars (Though he had a scary fall on that that brought the whole team back to practicing rolling out of them again.) So with lots of conditioning and practice it will come along.

 

[skschlag]

I did ask d about pb handstand once, because he had a great press..but could not hold on pbs. He said " mom...when you get up there, and you look down...there's NOTHING! I found that kinda funny, and really made me understand why it was so difficult, and scary!

 

[gracyomalley]

much better for a young L4-5 to not try to hit HS on pbars until he can control it - many don't hit full handstand for the dismount at this level (and take the deduction, of course) - but as they get stronger and more controlled it comes and isn't scary then - DS 14 (L7 now, but L5 last year - he started at age 10), just started hitting his HS with control end of last year as he hit puberty - and now can hold them for ages, pirouette, do 2 different flipping dismounts out of them, etc - a controlled swing with good form is more important at this time (DS 10 hit his first controlled HS last year at regionals on pbars - starting to know where his body is some of the time....)

The BHS requires a good round off with strong rebound to be safe and hit 2 in a row. LOTS of work on roundoffs is required - thats why the boys in L7 and up still work on rebounds....I personally don't like watching "back headsprings" - it gets the pediatrician in me worked up - I'd rather they wait until they can do it safely - but then, they are boys, after all!

 

[2G1B]

My Ds was hitting handstand before the dismount at level 4 but stopped at level 5. That is when the p bars went higher and he admits that it freaked him out. He said, " mom, I'm like a midget by the bars!!!". I think he is doing it now; but it has taken a year for him to build some confidence on the higher bars setting

For bhs. . D's didn't have nearly the problem with it that both if my dds have had. It took older did a solid year to get a decent one. Younger dd started working it in spring and is still hit or miss

 

[profmom]

Last year, DS's coach made his group really work on the roll out of the pbars handstand. Every practice that they did pbars, they did at least a few, and at first he spotted them until they were comfortable, and then it was just part of the warmup every time they did the event. He wanted it to become instinctive to roll out rather than crashing whenever they overbalanced a handstand. I think it was one of the best things he did for them, because there are no handstand fears in that group now.

It takes a loooong time to get a good RO-BHS. Just getting the mechanics of the RO right takes years. It will come! One of DS's teammates is still not beautiful with his BHSs, but they are improving all the time.

 

[curlymop]

Thanks for the words of wisdom. I'll try to just relax and trust the coaches, though I do wish they would teach the boys how to roll out of the handstand. As for the BHS, he's not landing on his head. Hands and feet only, even when he goes for two of them. It just isn't very fluid, and his legs are bent.

The comment about the higher p-bars at L5 did bring to mind another question, though. With the higher setting, can the coach effectively spot to prevent the gymnast from falling over on the handstand? One of our L4s attempted it at states last year, and the coach had to catch him. It was a big deduction, but it was better than falling onto the bars. I'd assumed it would work the same with L5, but maybe not?

This would all be so much easier if the coach weren't pushing to move him up to L5, where all of his borderline skills are requirements rather than bonuses. Coach's reasoning is that he thinks DS has the skills and will be bored with another year of L4. Since he's working the higher level skills during practice, I don't think he'll be bored, and I'd rather see him compete at a level where he's more confident.

 

[skschlag]

Is he 6 or 7? I thought they had to be 7 for level 5? I know there is an exception for 4, but is there one for 5 as well? I forget..lol

Maybe he will do well moving up, but you know him best. If you think another year of 4 is where he needs to be, then push a bit for that

 

[curlymop]

He is 6 now, though he'll turn 7 just after the first meet. So last year he first competed within days of turning 6. There is an exception at L5, so it's just a matter of whether he's ready.

 

[skschlag]

OK. I didn't realize they had the exception for 5 as well as 4. LOL. Seems like they should stick to the ages or not have strict age ranges so that I don't get so confused

 

[2G1B]

If he doesn't have a solid bhs and handstand on the low pbars I'd personally want to stay at level 4, especially if only 6 years old. I did think they had to be 7 to do level 5; but even if I'm wrong on that, at least in our area, a kid would get killed score wise without those things. Does he have a kip? Front handspring? The other level 5 elements? One of my friends who is a coach tells me that for boys there is just no reason to push them through levels at a young age like there is for girls. He says have them where they are happy, placing decently and just have them up train some.

 

[skschlag]

Yeah. I can't find anywhere that says they can be 6 at level 5. But maybe it was a later update. The one I have jsut as the exception for level 4, that they can compete once they turn 6.

I agree with 2G1B...I would not want him to get frustrated. He has years left in the sport. It is such a long haul. As long as he is training the next skills, and adding bonuses, he should have a fun year.

 

[skschlag]

I did find the exception, but I would still wait. He has plenty of time

 

[curlymop]

Yep, it's in one of the updates: https://usagym.org/PDFs/Men/AGCP_Update3.pdf

But I do think L4 is a better choice this year. Until now, DS has said he didn't care how he scored or whether he got any medals. Now that the first meet is approaching, he's starting to feel the pressure, and I know he's getting frustrated.

And no, he doesn't have a kip yet. If you ask him, he says he almost has it, but I know that stage could last a while. Front handspring is ugly, but he does land on his feet. Press handstand looks pretty good, though, as does the dive roll. Vault and rings are decent (though no bonuses), but mushroom will be hit or miss. At one point he was hitting 3 and 4 circles consistently and 5 or 6 on a good turn. Lately, getting to 3 is not a sure thing. Form seems to have gotten worse on that...

 

[sce]

I agree, better to clean up his form and compete with bonuses in level 4 at this age. He has tons of time to move up levels.

 

[sce]

I agree, better to clean up his form and compete with bonuses in level 4 at this age. He has tons of time to move up levels.

As well, there is a point where he will have to repeat, as level 8 has an age minimum.

 

[profmom]

I don't like second-guessing coaches, but I am a BIG believer in the handstand roll, and it seems like your little guy would be fine with another year of 4 where he can stretch himself a little bit but not feel pressured. That being said, it looks like we will have some 7 year old L5s this year (though also some second-year 6 year old L4s who competed last year after turning 6, yikes!). As long as he doesn't care much about meet results, the level he competes matters far less than what he is training.

Level 5 is a funny level. As things have settled down with the stricter age limits, it seems like you see a huge range at L5, all the way from kids who look like they're going to die when they throw the single BHS to kids who are third years going for gold in the L5 Olympics because the coaches prefer to compete them there while getting the basics immaculately clean. Looking at scores, L6 is a bit that way as well, but the top isn't as high (because kids move up to L7 and hang out there waiting to age up into optionals) and there just aren't as many guys at the low end.

 

[magmom]

Like profmom, I would typically leave this sort of decision on the coaching side. But, I agree with what the others are saying. In this case, I would err on the side of holding him back. Give him a chance to get his basics really solid and uptrain. Conditioning is also key.

Curious, why does the coach think he will be bored at another year of level 4?

Oh, and from my observation that bhs just takes time and repetition. My son probably spent six months going RO - pause - BHS. With bendy arms. It finally started looking cleaner and more connected after about 9 months.

 

[curlymop]

Like profmom, I would typically leave this sort of decision on the coaching side. But, I agree with what the others are saying. In this case, I would err on the side of holding him back. Give him a chance to get his basics really solid and uptrain. Conditioning is also key.

Curious, why does the coach think he will be bored at another year of level 4?

Oh, and from my observation that bhs just takes time and repetition. My son probably spent six months going RO - pause - BHS. With bendy arms. It finally started looking cleaner and more connected after about 9 months.

I think it's just because the L4 routines are so basic. And also because he keeps forgetting that DS is only 6. It's been a couple of months since I brought it up, but when I mention that he can still compete as a 6 year old, he always says "Really? I thought he was 7..."