WAG Slow Tumbling - Is There a "Fix"?

[Quadqueen]

My daughter is training level 8. She is not a super-fast runner and apparently, not a very fast flipper. She can do double backs off bars onto a mat in the pit ok, but when she does double backs on floor into the pit, or on the tumble trak, it looks like she is going in slow motion. Even her RO-BHS looks slow when she's on the tumble trak.

She's also a slow flipper on vault.

I guess she is what you would call "slow twitch."

She can do a back full and sometimes lands a 1.5, has a double salto front pass, but isn't great at front twisting.

Any suggestions for increasing her speed, or is this just how she is?

 

[Geoffrey Taucer]

This could be due to any number of technical issues or it could be a lack of lower body strength. (or -- and this is most likely -- a combination of several relatively small technical issues compounded by a lack of lower-body strength).

My gut impulse would be to first look at her tumbling entry (ie the hurdle and lunge); that phase of tumbling is critically important and, in my opinion, chronically overlooked by many coaches. But I'd have to see a video to be sure that's your DD's issue.

In general, lower body strength will increase power in tumbling and vaulting.

 

[Quadqueen]

She has plenty of leg strength, if that's what you mean by lower body strength.

 

[Geoffrey Taucer]

How about glute and calf strength?

 

[gymjunkie]

As a parent, you can make sure she is not doing any endurance training on the side, because that will make her even more slow twitch. Hopefully they are not doing any endurance training at the gym. Her coach should be loading her conditioning time with plyometrics and glut/hamstring conditioning that is designed with speed and power in mind. If they are not doing that, they either don't have the knowledge or have a cookie cutter conditioning program that is based on what the majority needs (maybe her teammates are all very quick and powerful by nature). If that's the case, you may want to find her a strength and conditioning coach outside of the gym (once who knows gymnastics), because yes she can increase her speed with the right training.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

yes, all of the above, but you can only increase twitch by a bit. you can't take a slow twitch body and make it fast like those bodies. when you said endurance training i assume you meant aerobic training. endurance can also mean stamina which equals cardio...that which you need for floor and ending with D or better skills.

 

[Quadqueen]

They do both endurance/aerobic and plyometrics. Sounds like there isn't too much that can be done if that's just how they are.

 

[Gymsanity]

For best results, try and post a video so the coaches can see the root of the problem and some possible fixes.

 

[gymjunkie]

yes, all of the above, but you can only increase twitch by a bit. you can't take a slow twitch body and make it fast like those bodies. when you said endurance training i assume you meant aerobic training. endurance can also mean stamina which equals cardio...that which you need for floor and ending with D or better skills.

I know what you are talking about Dunno and I never know exactly what to refer that type of training as, so "stamina training" works for me. What I am talking about when I say endurance training is kids who take up jogging thinking that will help them get through a floor routine

I have seen slow twitch kids get much faster with the right conditioning, but it did have to be tailored to the slow twitch kid. They would not have made those same gains had they only followed the conditioning that was set up for the rest of the team (ie: the naturally fast twitch kids).

 

[scanlri]

Maybe this isn't the best forum for the question, but based on the discussion above..... What about swimming for gymnasts? It is that time of year with summer swim teams, and I know many kids who sign up for swimming to complement their gymnastics training. Does that type of endurance/aerobic training help or hinder what they are doing in gymnastics?

 

[Quadqueen]

For best results, try and post a video so the coaches can see the root of the problem and some possible fixes.

Thanks...I try not to be too public here, but I appreciate the fact that coaches would be willing to do that!

 

[Muddlethru]

Thanks...I try not to be too public here, but I appreciate the fact that coaches would be willing to do that!

I would send the video privately to one or two coaches whose opinion you respect. In addition, it may seem to you that your daughter is tumbling too slow but in reality she may be fine. Have her coaches indicated concern with the "slowness" of her tumbling?

 

[Quadqueen]

I would send the video privately to one or two coaches whose opinion you respect. In addition, it may seem to you that your daughter is tumbling too slow but in reality she may be fine. Have her coaches indicated concern with the "slowness" of her tumbling?

Yes, they have.

 

[Muddlethru]

Yes, they have.

I only know what I've read about slow and fast twitch.; and that is simply everyone is born with some fast and slow twitch, some having more of one than the other. So, your daughter has some fast twitch (if indeed lack of fast twitch is the issue). And as with most everything, we can only improve on what we have. Maybe then the good coaches of this forum can advice of particular advanced skills that allow slower twitch gymnast to progress to the high levels. For instance, she MAY never be able to do a double layout but there must be other skills with the same difficulty skill level that a less fast twitched gymnast can do when your daughter gets to L10 for instance.

 

[Quadqueen]

That's kind of what I was looking for, 4thelove...some hope that she still might be able to do some of the tougher skills at some point, even being "slow twitch."

 

[Muddlethru]

Also quadqueen, I could be wrong but bars is more of a strength event than a fast twitch; and colleges are always looking for strong bar workers rather than floor. Your daughter should be fine in bars and beam. Getting the right skills in floor is all she needs.

 

[cbifoja]

If you know what to look for, can you watch a kid and see which type of muscle they have?

 

[iwannacoach]

My daughter is training level 8. She is not a super-fast runner and apparently, not a very fast flipper. She can do double backs off bars onto a mat in the pit ok, but when she does double backs on floor into the pit, or on the tumble trak, it looks like she is going in slow motion. Even her RO-BHS looks slow when she's on the tumble trak.

She's also a slow flipper on vault.

I guess she is what you would call "slow twitch."

She can do a back full and sometimes lands a 1.5, has a double salto front pass, but isn't great at front twisting.

Any suggestions for increasing her speed, or is this just how she is?

I doubt she's got a severe case of slow twitch because slow twitch kids are not going to be super fast runners, unless you're talking about running 3000 meters with well trained form and technique. Slow twitch kids have difficulty with anything that requires instantaneous reversal of body motions. Examples of this would be setting for a layout but changing shape into the dish/hollow layout position takes to long to make the skill work the way it should. Standing back tucks would be difficult at the least, as would well presented bhs on beam done with rhythm and some sense of dynamics. So maybe she's not slow twitch but could be if she seems to camp out on her hands during a beam bhs or takes forever to get off her feet when punching.

My guess is that she hasn't figured out or been taught/told how to use her core muscles during the double back and salto skills from the vault table. Many times kids will use the correct muscles and rhythm to move into the tuck position after setting a double or vault salto, and once they've gotten tucked stop using those muscle's peak energy. In other words they think it's enough to be in a tucked position and that alone will get them around. The missing component is the muscles that move them into the tuck need to be working their hardest throughout the first salto and then into the first half of the second salto.

Consider the idea and compare it with a child doing a backward roll. Moving into a tucked position is import because their legs are easier to lift and carry around as they roll. Other factors come into play during that skill, but factors such as momentum are only contributors to the big picture and none of them can (done sensibly) compensate for the lack of muscular effort.

So maybe......

 

[iwannacoach]

If you know what to look for, can you watch a kid and see which type of muscle they have?

There are two ends to the twitch scale. If you dive that scale into equal 3rds the kids in one end section will be distinctly different from kids in the other.

 

[Quadqueen]

I doubt she's got a severe case of slow twitch because slow twitch kids are not going to be super fast runners, unless you're talking about running 3000 meters with well trained form and technique. Slow twitch kids have difficulty with anything that requires instantaneous reversal of body motions. Examples of this would be setting for a layout but changing shape into the dish/hollow layout position takes to long to make the skill work the way it should. Standing back tucks would be difficult at the least, as would well presented bhs on beam done with rhythm and some sense of dynamics. So maybe she's not slow twitch but could be if she seems to camp out on her hands during a beam bhs or takes forever to get off her feet when punching.

My guess is that she hasn't figured out or been taught/told how to use her core muscles during the double back and salto skills from the vault table. Many times kids will use the correct muscles and rhythm to move into the tuck position after setting a double or vault salto, and once they've gotten tucked stop using those muscle's peak energy. In other words they think it's enough to be in a tucked position and that alone will get them around. The missing component is the muscles that move them into the tuck need to be working their hardest throughout the first salto and then into the first half of the second salto.

Consider the idea and compare it with a child doing a backward roll. Moving into a tucked position is import because their legs are easier to lift and carry around as they roll. Other factors come into play during that skill, but factors such as momentum are only contributors to the big picture and none of them can (done sensibly) compensate for the lack of muscular effort.

So maybe......

Thanks...that gives something to think about. She is a stronger front tumbler and that does not seem slow to me, so I think you may be correct in that she's just not been using her core muscles during the double back and flipping vault. She has no problem with BHS on beam (still working on connecting BHS-BHS) and can do a standing tuck on beam, so I don't know.