WAG The culture of abuse is still existing

[twinmomma]

I never said our culture was protective. Don’t put words in my mouth. I said our culture does not encourage blind acceptance.

And I’m sorry I don’t believe an awful lot of parents “trusted their radar”. In fact part of the problem is the internal alarms were dismissed because of the over investment of the child’s success in the sport.

As parents we need to be more invested in the long term physical, mental and emotional well being of our kids then in their athletic success.

Until that happens the culture will not change.

A couple of my favorite quotes.

What you allow will continue

And from Maya

When people show you who they are believe them. The first time.

I'd argue the complete opposite. Our culture absolutely encourages blind acceptance. Don't question doctors. Don't question the president. Don't question teachers. Don't question your parents. What culture are you living in?

The problem is these are CHILDREN, being MANIPULATED by adults in power and all the instinct in the world won't undo Stockholm syndrome. There's zero reason for you to think that you are immune to the manipulation that's out there, but you can keep fooling yourself into thinking that you're somehow better and smarter than the hundreds of parents whose daughters were abused by Nassar.

 

[momnipotent]

Would those parents accept that of their kids teacher? If they were getting all A’s. Likely not. They would likely say better a happy B or C kid then a miserable A kid. And if they were OK with their kid being mistreated for an A. I’m sure you wouldn’t consider them attentive.

As a teacher, I can tell you that a huge subset of parents absolutely would accept it for A’s. I see it all the time. And many of them are certainly attentive (over-attentive actually). Attentive doesn’t mean good, but I do think they all believe they are doing the best thing for their child at that moment. I think many of them are wrong about that, but the intentions are good.

 

[gymisforeveryone]

Sadly, The United States is also the only country that has not ratified the Convention on the Rights of the Child by the United Nations.The United States also allows corporal punishment by law, and some states allow it in the schools too so it can be completely legal for someone in the authority position to slap a child. Corporal punishment is not legal in schools in Japan, so I would assume that it's not allowed in the gyms either.

 

[Flippin'A]

It's so tempting to believe that all these parents did something wrong. Because if they ignored the signs or didn't listen to their gut or consciously put medals ahead of their child's wellbeing then that means all I have to do to keep my kid safe is to not make those same mistakes. Believing that every parent whose child was abused did something wrong means that I have the power to make sure that never happens to my family. Sure, part of the American culture is about being independent, but a large part is also about being the best, and putting in the hard, painful work required to become number one. Sometimes that just means putting in the hours and working hard at conditioning and skipping a few birthday parties, but sometimes it becomes twisted and turns into putting up with abuse. I don't believe for a second that a Western mentality will keep our kids safe, or that parents alone can make this change.

 

[Faith]

There is abuse in every culture. Let's not justify this by saying that cultures are different. The thing is that the international culture of gymnastics is broken and allows way too much of mistreatment of kids. This is not the first time I have seen or heard a coach slap a gymnast.Sadly, it can happen everywhere

This.

]

I was speaking about western culture vs eastern culture, not gymnastics.

Yes I’m very happy to live here in the West/US. Where culturally as a society I was raised it’s Ok to not blindly accept things as they are. Where that type of discipline is not the norm, these days.

Abuse is not just physical. It’s not just being slapped. And this is where we are blinded to abuse in out western culture. Our kids aren’t being hit, so the lines of abuse vs. Discipline are much harder to see.

We were at a very successful club. In the Uk. The culture was wrong. It didn’t seem like abuse. There was no hitting. Barely any shouting even.

It is subtle. As often with abusive relationships, the kids and the parents think it’s their fault. They are not working hard enough to please the coach, if they were better or made the changes quicker the coach wouldn’t get angry, wouldn’t refuse to coach them until they begged to be allowed to rejoin the group.

The parents don’t have experience in sport. They aren’t in the gym hearing what is said, seeing their kids being sent to condition and isolated as punishment. They don’t see the group culture where the competition is for the coaches attention, to be the favourite for 10 minutes- to stand by and allow mistreatment of team mates, because at least it isn’t them.

I moved my child. Was it the best thing for her sport? Maybe not. But she bounces into training, and enjoys every minute. I still talk to some of the parents from the old club and thank god we are not there.

It has been 2 years and I haven’t reported it. I should have, but it would have been dismissed as my child (unbeaten at junior elite level for 2 years, for context) wasn’t in their top “future olympian” squad. Those were kids who had never even come close to reaching dd’s level- and that in itself is a form of abuse, where you pass over successful kids in favour of coach selected favourites.

I should report it. But again the culture is that the bearer of bad news tend to be the ones that suffer. Especially if none of the parents will support me. Which they won’t, because all they see is the medals and the time and effort paying off.

 

[profmom]

I'd like to point out that Japan is having a very different conversation about abuse in sport right now. Can anyone tell me if any American gymnastics coach other than John Geddert, who was tainted by his association with Larry Nassar, has been suspended or banned by USAG for a non-sexual offense?

https://theolympians.co/2018/09/03/...wer-harassment-in-japanese-womens-gymnastics/

 

[MILgymFAM]

I'd like to point out that Japan is having a very different conversation about abuse in sport right now. Can anyone tell me if any American gymnastics coach other than John Geddert, who was tainted by his association with Larry Nassar, has been suspended or banned by USAG for a non-sexual offense?

https://theolympians.co/2018/09/03/...wer-harassment-in-japanese-womens-gymnastics/

I don’t think she should have the choice to choose an abusice coach. Whether it’s a power play or not, well I have no idea, but him being banned seems right to me.

 

[LJL07]

I'd like to point out that Japan is having a very different conversation about abuse in sport right now. Can anyone tell me if any American gymnastics coach other than John Geddert, who was tainted by his association with Larry Nassar, has been suspended or banned by USAG for a non-sexual offense?

https://theolympians.co/2018/09/03/...wer-harassment-in-japanese-womens-gymnastics/

Yep. None that I am aware of, and a quick review of the suspended and permanent ineligible list pretty much reveals that all suspensions except for Geddert are due to sexual misconduct charges.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

A question to ponder. No response necessary.

If your child was dating/involved with a person who was setting off alarm bells, if you had concerns about their treatment of your child. If you felt your child was being abused by them.

Would you encourage this relationship? Would you drop them off to see this person? Would you say for instance, oh well they are rich so its OK he/she treats them like cr@p?
Or how he/she is highly regarded so its OK they are treating my kid like cr@p?

And believe me I am well aware the person being abused be it emotionally, verbally, physcially is to close to get it at times.

But if as a parent you see it. Do you make it easier for the abuser to continue?

Because if you say don't be ridiculous, of course I would never let that happen or be OK with that?

Then the question you need to ask yourself, is why would I accept that behavior from coach? For a medal?

Again, no one owes me an answer. None is expected.

 

[stillhoping]

This.



Abuse is not just physical. It’s not just being slapped. And this is where we are blinded to abuse in out western culture. Our kids aren’t being hit, so the lines of abuse vs. Discipline are much harder to see.

We were at a very successful club. In the Uk. The culture was wrong. It didn’t seem like abuse. There was no hitting. Barely any shouting even.

It is subtle. As often with abusive relationships, the kids and the parents think it’s their fault. They are not working hard enough to please the coach, if they were better or made the changes quicker the coach wouldn’t get angry, wouldn’t refuse to coach them until they begged to be allowed to rejoin the group.

The parents don’t have experience in sport. They aren’t in the gym hearing what is said, seeing their kids being sent to condition and isolated as punishment. They don’t see the group culture where the competition is for the coaches attention, to be the favourite for 10 minutes- to stand by and allow mistreatment of team mates, because at least it isn’t them.

I moved my child. Was it the best thing for her sport? Maybe not. But she bounces into training, and enjoys every minute. I still talk to some of the parents from the old club and thank god we are not there.

Except for the part about being in the UK, I could have written this. I think a lot pf parents who have been in this sport a while could have written this.

 

[twinmomma]

A question to ponder. No response necessary.

If your child was dating/involved with a person who was setting off alarm bells, if you had concerns about their treatment of your child. If you felt your child was being abused by them.

Would you encourage this relationship? Would you drop them off to see this person? Would you say for instance, oh well they are rich so its OK he/she treats them like cr@p?
Or how he/she is highly regarded so its OK they are treating my kid like cr@p?

And believe me I am well aware the person being abused be it emotionally, verbally, physcially is to close to get it at times.

But if as a parent you see it. Do you make it easier for the abuser to continue?

Because if you say don't be ridiculous, of course I would never let that happen or be OK with that?

Then the question you need to ask yourself, is why would I accept that behavior from coach? For a medal?

Again, no one owes me an answer. None is expected.

You continue to fail to miss the point. You are assuming that a slew of parents simply ignored warning signs and red flags. You assume you would know better. You assume that you know that they are possibly being abused. When in reality, your child is coming home, telling you about new skills, not letting you into the fact that their coach is abusing them because they've been manipulated into believing they deserve it, they misunderstand it, or it's not abuse.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

You continue to fail to miss the point. You are assuming that a slew of parents simply ignored warning signs and red flags. You assume you would know better. You assume that you know that they are possibly being abused. When in reality, your child is coming home, telling you about new skills, not letting you into the fact that their coach is abusing them because they've been manipulated into believing they deserve it, they misunderstand it, or it's not abuse.

Oh no I’m speaking directly to the folks who say, they know of concerns, there are parents who have concerns and they stay and put up with it because the gym gets results. They accept, the that’s just how it is line.

Im speaking to the parents who see/hear the warning bells and dismiss them because they win.

My question. Again, no answer required at what cost?

Again, as a parent, you have alarm bells ringing all over? And yet you let your kid stay?

If it was someone they were dating you’d let that happen? Then why let it happen with a coach?

No one owes me or any one else an answer.

This is what folks need to ask themselves when those alarm bells are going off in their hearts and brains.

And if they let their kids stay any way, well then yeah, they own that.

Me, someone says your kid will get a D1 ride, but it will cause her great distress to her mental health. Thanks but no thanks. I’m out

 

[3rd_time_around]

Sadly, The United States is also the only country that has not ratified the Convention on the Rights of the Child by the United Nations.The United States also allows corporal punishment by law, and some states allow it in the schools too so it can be completely legal for someone in the authority position to slap a child. Corporal punishment is not legal in schools in Japan, so I would assume that it's not allowed in the gyms either.

Let's not go here. That's a bad document. There are some good things, but overall, no. This should not be used as a litmus test.

 

[Taxidriver]

I think coming from a culture where physical punishment is frowned upon it’s very easy to watch that clip and be shocked.
But abuse is much more than just the glaringly obviously physical abuse, I would find it hard to understand a parent see that happen to their child and continue to take their child back to that coach however abuse is often so much more subtle and secretive and manipulative and abusers are often charming and manipulate and brain wash parents - the boiling the frog alive analogy.
I do often say to others what would you say if it was a teacher would you be ok with it?
But to think I can 100% guarantee that my dd or any of my children won’t suffer any abuse would be incredibly naive of me, I will do all I can to minimise the chances and try to be aware of any indications that all is not ok but short on never letting my kids leave my house sadly I can’t guarantee they won’t suffer any abuse.

 

[profmom]

To me, this conversation really highlights how some elements of culture around parenting collide with some elements of culture around gym to create pathological situations. The culture in some gyms is for athletes to obey and listen, do as they're told, and never complain. One strand of parenting culture in the US emphasizes the parent's all-important role in protecting the child from all trauma, thereby lifting from the child any responsibility for acting as an agent to solve their own problems. As a college professor, I should not be getting emails or phone calls from parents whose children are upset about their grades or because they are ill, have to miss a few classes, and need to know what to do to catch up.

Teenagers should be swimming against BOTH tides. They should have the tools and the support to judge circumstances independently, understand where the lines are, and talk without fear of punishment about whether they have been crossed. As a gym parent, I should not have to feel like I need to be in the gym for every practice watching to see if something bad is going to happen. My child should have the autonomy and independence to make those judgment calls.

I think we all recognize this but I will say it anyway. Your child will experience trauma. Your child will be the victim of unfair treatment. Your child will be treated hurtfully. Your child will probably be harassed by someone in some way, shape, or form at some point. As a parent, you cannot prevent this unless you are willing to keep your child from experiencing a whole lot of life. If your child expects you to do all of the work of managing negative experiences, what do you think is going to happen the first time your child experiences unfair treatment in the workplace as an adult?

 

[Faith]

Im speaking to the parents who see/hear the warning bells and dismiss them because they win

I don’t necessarily think they make a conscious decision to allow abuse in favour of medals.

I was sure enough in my own head our old gym was abusive. Sure enough to yank dd out against her will and nearly end her athletic career.

But. I ask myself, if I am so sure, why haven’t I reported it?

The answer is I can’t put my finger on it and say to a third party look, those kids are being abused. If I took my litany of small details to the authorities it can all be easily rationalised away. And i think parents do the same. They see suzie being isolated and ignored, but the next session she’s the focus of attention and they question themselves- The coach is being lovely tonight, maybe I was just being paranoid and it wasn’t ignoring, she wasn’t doing what was asked, or someone else needed the attention, or maybe she needed a bit of extra conditioning.

I don’t even think the coach realises what she’s doing. That the cycle of withdrawing and bestowing attention to motivate is abusive. That humiliating and using other children to witness the humilation so they toe the line without question is abuse.

Profmom- i have always told dd that if she wasn’t happy, if she didn’t like her coach, felt her coach was mean, or said things she wasn’t comfortable with, that there was always another coach, another club. But there’s a reason abused women stay in violent and abusive relationships. For one, the abuser tends to manipulate the victim into feeling it is their fault. For second, they tend to destroy their victim’s self esteem to such an extent they genuinely believe the abuser is the only one who thinks there’s even a point in a relationship/gymnastics. They stay because they believe if they leave that coach they will have to quit because no one else will coach them. The abuser is the only one who cares and believes in them.. they become reliant and believe they can’t do it without them.

 

[Geoffrey Taucer]

I think we all recognize this but I will say it anyway. Your child will experience trauma. Your child will be the victim of unfair treatment. Your child will be treated hurtfully. Your child will probably be harassed by someone in some way, shape, or form at some point. As a parent, you cannot prevent this unless you are willing to keep your child from experiencing a whole lot of life. If your child expects you to do all of the work of managing negative experiences, what do you think is going to happen the first time your child experiences unfair treatment in the workplace as an adult?

All of this is true. We cannot reasonably expect anybody to go through life without ever dealing with some sort of abuse (and while it disgusts me to have to say it, this statement applies to everybody but it ESPECIALLY applies to girls.) Almost everybody will at some point be subjected to abusive behavior. It may come from a parent, a teacher, a coach, a boss, a significant other, or even a random stranger; whatever the case, abusive behavior is simply too prevalent in our society for us to maintain any sort of delusion that our children will never be subjected to it.

However, this ABSOLUTELY DOES NOT mean that we should simply accept this as part of life that they must become accustomed to. Abusive behavior at any level should be recognized and called out. People who engage in abusive behavior should be called out and made to feel ashamed for that behavior. We should absolutely NOT prepare our children for this abuse by getting them accustomed to it; rather, we should strive to create a world where abuse is sufficiently rare that when we see it, we immediately recognize it as being abnormal and unacceptable.
If one of my students someday has an abusive employer, I don't want them to muddle through it; I want them to have the courage to quit on the spot. If one of my students someday has a significant other who becomes abusive, I don't want them to push through it; I want them to have the courage dump that person on the spot. If one of my students is someday training at a gym that has an abusive coach, I don't want them to work through it; I want them to have the courage quit that gym on the spot.

One of my most cherished philosophies is that part of any person's responsibility is to make the world a better place for those who come after. The gymnastics world I grew up in was one where direct corporal punishment (ie hitting an athlete) was unacceptable, but more subtle abuse (emotional manipulation, conditioning-as-punishment, bullying) seemed normal. I want my athletes to grow up in a better world than that, and I want the next generation of athletes to grow up in an even better world than that, etc, etc. Abusive practices will not go extinct in my lifetime, but I believe they will eventually, and I want to do anything I can to accelerate that process.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

However, this ABSOLUTELY DOES NOT mean that we should simply accept this as part of life that they must become accustomed to. Abusive behavior at any level should be recognized and called out. People who engage in abusive behavior should be called out and made to feel ashamed for that behavior. We should absolutely NOT prepare our children for this abuse by getting them accustomed to it; rather, we should strive to create a world where abuse is sufficiently rare that when we see it, we immediately recognize it as being abnormal and unacceptable.
If one of my students someday has an abusive employer, I don't want them to muddle through it; I want them to have the courage to quit on the spot. If one of my students someday has a significant other who becomes abusive, I don't want them to push through it; I want them to have the courage dump that person on the spot. If one of my students is someday training at a gym that has an abusive coach, I don't want them to work through it; I want them to have the courage quit that gym on the spot.

One of my most cherished philosophies is that part of any person's responsibility is to make the world a better place for those who come after. The gymnastics world I grew up in was one where direct corporal punishment (ie hitting an athlete) was unacceptable, but more subtle abuse (emotional manipulation, conditioning-as-punishment, bullying) seemed normal. I want my athletes to grow up in a better world than that, and I want the next generation of athletes to grow up in an even better world than that, etc, etc. Abusive practices will not go extinct in my lifetime, but I believe they will eventually, and I want to do anything I can to accelerate that process.

This. It’s not that it won’t happen. I as a parent will not continue to let it happen. I as a parent, will not say this is normal, ok and we just have to deal with it.

Heck just this week another kid in class has personal space issues. We escalated, to the teachers. She has been told to interrupt clas if he continues, as many times as necessary. And if it it continues and her elbow should hit his side, so be it.

There has been a seat change.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

I was sure enough in my own head our old gym was abusive. Sure enough to yank dd out against her will and nearly end her athletic career..
.

And you pulled her. You didn’t stay.

You sent a very important message to your child this is not OK.

 

[MILgymFAM]

I don’t necessarily think they make a conscious decision to allow abuse in favour of medals.

I was sure enough in my own head our old gym was abusive. Sure enough to yank dd out against her will and nearly end her athletic career.

But. I ask myself, if I am so sure, why haven’t I reported it?

The answer is I can’t put my finger on it and say to a third party look, those kids are being abused. If I took my litany of small details to the authorities it can all be easily rationalised away. And i think parents do the same. They see suzie being isolated and ignored, but the next session she’s the focus of attention and they question themselves- The coach is being lovely tonight, maybe I was just being paranoid and it wasn’t ignoring, she wasn’t doing what was asked, or someone else needed the attention, or maybe she needed a bit of extra conditioning.

I don’t even think the coach realises what she’s doing. That the cycle of withdrawing and bestowing attention to motivate is abusive. That humiliating and using other children to witness the humilation so they toe the line without question is abuse.

Profmom- i have always told dd that if she wasn’t happy, if she didn’t like her coach, felt her coach was mean, or said things she wasn’t comfortable with, that there was always another coach, another club. But there’s a reason abused women stay in violent and abusive relationships. For one, the abuser tends to manipulate the victim into feeling it is their fault. For second, they tend to destroy their victim’s self esteem to such an extent they genuinely believe the abuser is the only one who thinks there’s even a point in a relationship/gymnastics. They stay because they believe if they leave that coach they will have to quit because no one else will coach them. The abuser is the only one who cares and believes in them.. they become reliant and believe they can’t do it without them.

You are so spot on. My DD was told again and again that no one else would ever want to coach her, that she was so without worth that it was this coach or nothing. It wasn’t until she decided that nothing would be better that the spell was broken. Her coach didn’t single her out, either. He basically treated everyone that way, at least at some point. Yet most of her former teammates were livid when she did report him, to the point of bullying her via social media. Those kids all 100% believe that the way this coach treated them was out of love, because he wanted them to be the best they could be, and that you just cannot be sensitive to the treatment. Her coach also said those things again and again to me. When I called out his behavior, he would tell me it was my fault my DD wasn’t successful, because I was questioning him and he knew better than me. This coach actually made Me cry on multiple occasions. Never once did I hear him raise his voice. He was a master manipulator, flaunting his degrees in psychology even.