WAG Normal coaching or bad instruction??

[littlegirlsdream]

Sooo DD is working on straddle cast handstand. She has been told her feet are infront of her bar when she straddles. Her response is she can't feel that happening at all. Coaches response was well you should feel it. I am just wondering if it is common to expect a kid to just "feel" the skill and make the correction. Seems less than helpful in this case but I don't really know,perhaps it's just expected that kids can feel and correct. Regardless my daughter says she doesn't feel it and knows in her brain she should correct it and what she should do but her body doesn't know how to correct it She is not very old by the way

 

[gymdog]

With one example like that, there's no way for us to tell. It could have been a joke, or one of 5,000 responses the coach gave your kid that day.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

precisely ^^^

 

[JBS]

I agree with the other two.

As a coach...you have to help the kids "feel" things...however...all of our high level gymnasts are very good at this concept...they definitely "feel" where their body is at.

 

[iwannacoach]

There's a lot of guess work involved in coaching each child according to their specific habits, abilities, and challenges. It's common for a coach to set each child up with a new skill with the same ideas and presentation that's worked for many past chidren who've handily learned that same skill. That process is sometimes inadequate, but it's sometimes difficult for a coach to recognise when a child needs 'more'.

Tell her to find a slow moment to respectfully ask her coach to offer advice on how to get into the correct position, because she wants to do it, thinks she is capable, and has tried everything *she* can think of to get it right, but it just hasn't been enough. Is the coach's lapse, in the sense of providing problem solving corrections, an indication of a bad coach? Not really, as it's very common to linger on the first step of the correction process where problems are identified. Sometimes just telling the kid what she's done wrong is enough and the kid gets it, solves it, and moves on. Of course that's a good thing, but a child who 'gets it' all the time may end up lulling their coach into reacting that way all the time because that's what's been working.

Well it isn't working now, and the coach needs to understand she's doing what she can to get this problem solved, well kinda sorta. The deal is..... learning is completely about change. Your daughter will have to do something different that she's never before done during a cast. Since she's never done that "thing" she needs to do, it's going to be difficult for her to feel it, and for the coach to describe it with terms she can relate to. Generally speaking, your daughter is the only person in the gym who can move her body through the skill, and it's up to her to make things change based either on her intuition or the coaches instruction. If she can't force her movements to change, then everybody can sit back and read a good book while waiting for one to come along by accident. It's that simple.

So if you ask me, both your dear daughter and her coach need to understand that doing the same thing over and over is going to bring about the same result until one of them does something different. That process..... the accidental change that eventually solves problems, isn't new to the world, and that's the way some coaches quickly teach skills once their 'go to' method fails. They make this happen by forcing/urging/encouraging changes, any change, just do anything different this time pleeeeease kinds of change.

I often tell kids, in this situation, that I don't care if they make apparent progress the next time they try a cast. Really, what I'm hoping for is that they move differently than the last time they tried. That's the kind of effort that gets a "way to go" from me, because once I get a kid to change things, I can react to what she's doing, give it a yea or nay, and ask her to do it just like that again, or try some other change, maybe one that I offer, or maybe one that she comes up with.

Geez, if we could just get the rest of the world on board with this........

 

[Deleted member 14190]

yes..... they should feel their feet together..... Most kids will say "I can't feel them apart" and I will ask them to fell them touching.... If that doesn't work then back to kip cast pike..... But your efforts would be better spent letting the coaches do their job and not fact checking them every time your DD comes home to tell you something... ultimately this will lead to your insanity and undoing... i mean that in a nice way...

 

[Deleted member D3987]

preach ^^^ baby, preach!

 

[littlegirlsdream]

Thanks for the responses. It's always helpful, well most of them anyway. I am not saying or questioning at all if its "bad coaching" but rather wondering if its common. I just have noticed that at some point, many coaches at many gyms do expect to be able to just say correct this and they do so. I wonder if the ability to do that is age related, level related or just an ability some have or all of the above and at what level would you say you find this should be happening. My daughter is capable of correcting and does so often innau areas but this area seems to be a struggle. Not sure about the "fact checking" comment. It's just me being curious how others do things. She has experienced aweful coaching but not at the gym she is at and has been at the last 3 years. I wasnt talking about feet together in a skills either but rather a skill she doesnt have and hasn't attained yet ever. Not very concerned about my undoing either as this is my daughters sport and my undoing is not really a factor in anything. As for my sanity...that can be questioned the day I let my daughter join team

 

[LizzieLac]

Thanks for the responses. It's always helpful, well most of them anyway. I am not saying or questioning at all if its "bad coaching" but rather wondering if its common. I just have noticed that at some point, many coaches at many gyms do expect to be able to just say correct this and they do so. I wonder if the ability to do that is age related, level related or just an ability some have or all of the above and at what level would you say you find this should be happening. My daughter is capable of correcting and does so often innau areas but this area seems to be a struggle. Not sure about the "fact checking" comment. It's just me being curious how others do things. She has experienced aweful coaching but not at the gym she is at and has been at the last 3 years. I wasnt talking about feet together in a skills either but rather a skill she doesnt have and hasn't attained yet ever. Not very concerned about my undoing either as this is my daughters sport and my undoing is not really a factor in anything. As for my sanity...that can be questioned the day I let my daughter join team

I can appreciate what you are saying. I think sometimes coaches think that a kid that is pretty intelligent and reasonably talented will 'just fix" what is wrong. And I am sure there are times when the coach doesn't have the time to go into a more lengthy explanation of what is wrong/how to fix/what to think/what to feel. I have heard plenty of "you are piking" kinds on comments - but pointing out what is wrong does not tell the child how to fix it. Some kids will be able to just stop piking as they only needed to have it pointed out to them. Others will not immediately know what to make their body do differently.

My observation is that there are many drills out there intended to "fix" such problems. Maybe your DD can ask for some of those drills? And I don't see any harm in her asking, when there is time, if the coach can give her some specific things she should do or try (push at this moment, when you see th wall do xx, etc.)

Good luck! I'm sure she'll get it!

 

[iwannacoach]

I wonder if the ability to do that is age related, level related or just an ability some have or all of the above and at what level would you say you find this should be happening.

All of the above, and none of the above. Some kids seem to have an innate ability to either get it right, or keep adjusting what they do until they get it right, while some kids have to evolve into those traits. That characteristic has little or nothing to do with physical gifts but, combined with those gifts, can really help a kid breeze through a new skill while others struggle.

Age, level, and experience have little to do with it, but are certainly enhanced by it.

 

[my4buffaloes]

Sometimes when my dd really struggles with a skill and just can't seem to make the corrections the coaches suggest - no matter how hard she tries - I have told her to ask them to spot her. I have even gone so far as to tell her to explain to the coach exactly the part she is having trouble with and see if the coach can help her hold that position while she makes the corrections. This has worked tremendously! When a couple of the coaches finally realized her vault was just getting worse not better with her trying everything they were saying they manually moved her body through the vault a few times and she got it finally and was able to make corrections from there and improved her vault by almost a point at the next meet.

**Of course this is after much lamenting on her part over the struggles and me trying to rack my brain as to how I can help her by talking it through and I kept coming back to ask the coaches but finally gave her specific words she could use to explain exactly what she meant when she said she needed help. Hopefully I didn't do something wrong! Phew, now I am worried I was too involved!

 

[Deleted member 14190]

Sometimes when my dd really struggles with a skill and just can't seem to make the corrections the coaches suggest - no matter how hard she tries - I have told her to ask them to spot her. I have even gone so far as to tell her to explain to the coach exactly the part she is having trouble with and see if the coach can help her hold that position while she makes the corrections. This has worked tremendously! When a couple of the coaches finally realized her vault was just getting worse not better with her trying everything they were saying they manually moved her body through the vault a few times and she got it finally and was able to make corrections from there and improved her vault by almost a point at the next meet.

**Of course this is after much lamenting on her part over the struggles and me trying to rack my brain as to how I can help her by talking it through and I kept coming back to ask the coaches but finally gave her specific words she could use to explain exactly what she meant when she said she needed help. Hopefully I didn't do something wrong! Phew, now I am worried I was too involved!

==
Based on the information supplied above, in my opinion, yes you are too involved... It's a sport, some kids move faster than others....

 

[mommyof1]

==
Based on the information supplied above, in my opinion, yes you are too involved... It's a sport, some kids move faster than others....

Yes, some kids do learn faster than others, but it sounds like this parent is actually trying to avoid coaching her child and instead teach the child to solve problems on her own. That is what parenting is all about. Some kids are naturally shy or fearful of authority and will not ask coaches or teachers for help or clarification when they are confused. These kids need to be encouraged to speak up and ask questions when necessary and appropriate. And sometimes they need a parent to help them plan how to ask those questions. I don't know if I would go so far as to tell my child to request to be spotted in a specific way, but if that's what the kid needs, then that's what it takes.

 

[gasrgoose]

Of course this is after much lamenting on her part over the struggles and me trying to rack my brain as to how I can help her by talking it through and I kept coming back to ask the coaches but finally gave her specific words she could use to explain exactly what she meant when she said she needed help. Hopefully I didn't do something wrong! Phew, now I am worried I was too involved!

Don't worry about it. If you were too involved no big deal. You've learned a little through the process. I'd rather be too involved than not involved enough. It's sometimes difficult to believe that the coaches could know what's best for your kid. But experience shows that if you are at a good gym they do!

I had a meeting last night with the head coach. My wife and I discussed what I should ask and share with him. After much deliberation we decided that we needed to let him know about her lack of confidence and that they probably weren't aware. I talked for 2 or 3 minutes and then the coach said " Yes i'm aware but her confidence is improving and it's very typical for a gymnast her age/ability". I thought "Oooohh, so that's why you are the coach!!!" Give the coach the benefit of the doubt unless you've got a reason not to.

 

[my4buffaloes]

Yes, some kids do learn faster than others, but it sounds like this parent is actually trying to avoid coaching her child and instead teach the child to solve problems on her own. That is what parenting is all about. Some kids are naturally shy or fearful of authority and will not ask coaches or teachers for help or clarification when they are confused. These kids need to be encouraged to speak up and ask questions when necessary and appropriate. And sometimes they need a parent to help them plan how to ask those questions. I don't know if I would go so far as to tell my child to request to be spotted in a specific way, but if that's what the kid needs, then that's what it takes.

This is exactly what I try to do and in a round about way was trying to say! My dd has a hard time speaking up for herself and giving her exact things to say really helps her. I think she rewords it in her own way, but it helps. I never try to jump in, but when she goes on and on the whole 30 minute drive home about the same thing as a parent I try to help her figure it out. I was trying to give the OP some tips for her dd to use so she could feel her feet more when she is doing the skill. My dd has had success asking the coaches to spot her on specific things so she can feel the skill better and make the corrections they are suggesting.

 

[littlegirlsdream]

I appreciate the input it is hard when your daughter goes on and on and is clearly frustrated and likely the coach is frustrated and you can't blame either of them. It is just a sport coachp but I, like many parents, come here to just bounce things off of people and get others perspectives. For me personally, I have really learned a ton and appreciate the comments and input from other coaches and parents over the past 4 years of belonging to this board. Then again I have never had anyone tell me I was going to cause my undoing or sanity to be lost

 

[BlairBob]

If she is a little one, telling her what she is doing may be of limited value. This is why you basically have to "shape" them by hand spotting.

Their eyes may just glaze over when you say some things.

 

[littlegirlsdream]

Yes she is relatively young...at least I think She is 8 and training level 7. So not a 8 year old level 10 but still just 8 That's partially why I asked because I wondered if at 8 she could really maybe not feel what she was doing. Lol that glazed look I have seen

 

[happychaos]

I think that coaching your daughter on how to speak with her coaches is NOT the same as actual *coaching*. I often help my DD (8) figure out what to say to the adults in her life, because she is (thankfully) very respectful of authority figures and often a bit intimidated. Usually I find myself helping her find the right words to express herself. If I were a coach, I would hope that a child would be able to tell me when they are not able to do or understand what I was telling them.

 

[iwannacoach]

I have told her to ask them to spot her.

The coaches should be left to decide whether to spot or not, but then the two of us may have different definitions of the word "spot." My concern is that when you tell your darling to ask for anything from the coach, you may be forming the notion in her mind that the "anything" is vital to her success.... so what if the coach feels the thing to do is something else.

I have even gone so far as to tell her to explain to the coach exactly the part she is having trouble with and see if the coach can help her hold that position while she makes the corrections.

I completely support the notion of a kid telling a coach what part of "don't pike" they don't understand, and feel the ability to communicate is vital to learning with the least amount of time spent by the gymnast and coach. I feel something needs to change if a child can't isn't comfortable enough to ask for a different verbal cue, or a physical cue where the coach places the kid into position and provides similar forces to key body sections to mimic, as well as possible, the experience of the skill.

If the only means to bring about that change is a gym mom prodding her kid from several different directions, well that's just the way it is. If, during that effort, the mom treads just a bit on my turf...... well, I guess if I was the coach I want to be, with the ability to know what every child needs to hear, or had the foresight to ask the kid if she felt something was missing in our collective model of the skill, I wouldn't have to worry about moms making the mistake of using gymnastics terminology they aren't familiar with while trying to help their kid figure out how to ask for help.

I've worked with kids from age 3 to 18 at every level short of international competitions, well maybe that too in an abstract sense. During my work, with that wide variety, I've learned the most about how to deliver my message from preschool age kids. How? Well they just don't "get it" almost every time.... no matter how simple the task, the explanation fails. In that same context, I've had team kids tell me I don't "get it" when they're working their tails and failing to progress while hearing me deliver the same correction over and over and over again. Sure, maybe I get a little ticked off that the kid needs more than my standard fare, probably embarrassed too, but the reality then strikes me that I should be grateful for being pressed to add another correction to my bag of tricks. It's all about the coach and gymnast getting a little better, each week, at the thing they're each passionate about. Me teaching, them learning.

Their eyes may just glaze over when you say some things.

Glazed over you say? It sounds like you've been there and done that, just like I have. I'm surprised you haven't grown more as a coach, able to bypass the "glaze phase" with a direct route to the more advanced "zombie phase." That's where I'm at, and I'm proud of it, and hope you join me soon in the esteemed ranks of coaches who can really blah, blah, blah, blahblahbah...blah.

My best preschool moment came about when I told a 3yo to put her hands on the floor to get ready to for a forward roll and nothing happened. I gotta say that this went on two days a week for 3 weeks, when she blurts out "I can't... it's all carpet.... all carpet..... so I can't put my hands down. In that moment I learned more about coaching than I had the entire past year, because I really understood that it's not what you say that counts, it what they think you're saying that really counts.

I know I don't know everything, but what I do know is that there's more that I don't, than do.