Parents "Pigeon-holing" Programs

[raenndrops]

This is a bit of a rant. For the 2nd time in a week, I have read something on this forum that has me irritated and I need to vent about it.

Xcel and YMCA programs seem to get a bad rap by people who do not necessarily know what they are talking about.

Yes, Xcel was designed to be a less expensive, less intense route to go to compete in gymnastics. BUT... in many area, it IS VERY competitive. They use the same judges as the JO meets... and they often share meets. The judges are NOT more lenient - it is the SR that are easier to fulfill (more ways to meet a requirement)... but the judges are still looking for the correct form in the skills.

YMCA programs - SOMETIMES, they don't go to a very high level (no dedicated gymnastics space, limited hours, etc)... OTHER TIMES, they are competing through L10... and their girls CAN (for the Y) compete in USAG meets. This is especially done at YMCAs that compete L9 and L10 or YMCAs that don't have a lot of Ys to compete against locally. They DO send girls to JO Nationals or Easterns/Westerns. They DO have girls that go on to compete for D1 (and D2 and D3) programs.

Just because someone is in a private gym in a JO program, it does not mean that they are in an INFERIOR program or that they are at an INFERIOR gym!

Thank you for your time.

 

[Quadqueen]

Clearly this was in response to my post on another thread, where I apologized if I offended you. There is a place for YMCA and XCel programs in the gymnastics world, and they certainly make it more accessible to more gymnasts, which I think we would all agree is great.

Some of us are providing our opinions based on our own experiences, but I would not go so far as to say we do not know what we are talking about.

My DD WAS at a YMCA gym and it WAS greatly inferior to a private gym. I'm sorry if it sounded like I believe 100% of all YMCA gyms are like that - I know they aren't. Did your own girls move from a private gym to the Y? Or have you ever coached at a private gym? Certainly, there are good gyms and bad gyms when it comes to private or YMCA or XCel. And you are defensive because you are at a YMCA. I guess what I'm saying is, if you haven't experienced a good private gym, you don't know what you're missing.

I don't know you, but I know what you've posted. Kids at our gym would not be competing L4 bars without ever having made a kip in practice (I recall you posting something like that) or having high scores on a certain event in the 6s, or moving up to the next level with what anyone would consider mediocre scores. That DOES happen at YMCA gyms - even yours, which I'm sure you would argue is a good program - and less-than-great private gyms.

And I think you'd be hard pressed to find any very experienced, knowledgeable coaches here on CB who would argue that YMCA and XCel programs are just as likely to get a kid as far in gymnastics as a good JO program at a private gym.

Just my two cents.

 

[Midwestmommy]

I think it is important for all of us to come up for air once in a while and remember....

Just as on the last day of our lives in this world we can all say that we put on our pants the same way--one leg at a time, and are taking our exit from here taking with us the exact same amount of material wealth--nothing......

All gymnasts (except for maybe two in the entire country every four years)....at age 23 at the most are mostly done competiting this sport and taking with them roughly the same stuff--wonderful life lessons, physical fitness (hopefully), wonderful friends, coaches and parents who love them, hopefully an education one way or another....

At age 25 pretty much no one except themselves and other crazy gymnastics people will remember anything they accomplished in this sport...

Heck I bet that more than 50% of the people in my office would not know who Simone Biles is and she was last year's world champion!! But most of them can name many many professional football and hockey players. The two names they can probably pull out of their brains for gymnastics are Mary Lou Retton and Gabby Douglas at the moment...

So hey whether your kids are Excel, YMCA, JO, Elite, NCAA or whatever....celebrate and enjoy them, they are all rock stars!!

 

[Amber]

This is a bit of a rant. For the 2nd time in a week, I have read something on this forum that has me irritated and I need to vent about it.

Xcel and YMCA programs seem to get a bad rap by people who do not necessarily know what they are talking about.

Yes, Xcel was designed to be a less expensive, less intense route to go to compete in gymnastics. BUT... in many area, it IS VERY competitive. They use the same judges as the JO meets... and they often share meets. The judges are NOT more lenient - it is the SR that are easier to fulfill (more ways to meet a requirement)... but the judges are still looking for the correct form in the skills.

YMCA programs - SOMETIMES, they don't go to a very high level (no dedicated gymnastics space, limited hours, etc)... OTHER TIMES, they are competing through L10... and their girls CAN (for the Y) compete in USAG meets. This is especially done at YMCAs that compete L9 and L10 or YMCAs that don't have a lot of Ys to compete against locally. They DO send girls to JO Nationals or Easterns/Westerns. They DO have girls that go on to compete for D1 (and D2 and D3) programs.

Just because someone is in a private gym in a JO program, it does not mean that they are in an INFERIOR program or that they are at an INFERIOR gym!

Thank you for your time.

I can definitely pipe in about Excel. My younger DD competed USAG level 4 and excel Gold this year (AAU and USAG). I've been consistently told that Excel scoring is more lenient. However, DD has scored a 9.1/9.2 the entire season on vault! Same vault! So I don't put much into that theory anymore. The girls work their butts off no matter what the program is...that's what counts.

 

[cbifoja]

Some of us are providing our opinions based on our own experiences, but I would not go so far as to say we do not know what we are talking about.

I think this is very accurate and why we need to be aware that this opinion thing is a two way street.

Like you, our YMCA gymnastics programs are NOT competitive. Our local Y doesn't even own a single rail low bar. They will teach you some tumbling and have you walk along a low beam. Their "vault" is that old school pommel horse type vaul from the 80s. That is my "Y reality".

And in my DD's club, I'm sorry, but we used Xcel/Prep Op for girls who just didn't have the chops to move up to L7. These girls weren't lazy or dumb or smelly. They just had fear issues or a lower fitness level or just didn't want to live, sleep and breathe gymnastics. They were wonderful young ladies. But they weren't uber talented phenoms. That is my "xcel reality".

So when I approach a question asking about YMCA or Xcel, my answer is colored by my personal experience.

And isn't that AWESOME! So many perspectives to be offered up here.

 

[munchkin3]

I feel your frustration reanndrops......We love our Y.
We kick A LOT of JO butt!
Our program costs less, and generally speaking you top out at 16hrs.
We still kick A LOT of JO butt....
The girls all have time to go to school, have weekend time with their families.
And Kick butt on the side.....
It has its problems like any gym, but we have always been VERY competitive.

 

[raenndrops]

Did your own girls move from a private gym to the Y? Or have you ever coached at a private gym?

My OG has attended a camp at Cincinnati (CGA)... and we were also able to observe their L10 and Elites practicing. At the camp, we went through CGA type of warm-up. We have also done open gyms at a few different private gyms. They do have things our gym doesn't have... but they also require more hours and more money and more meets and each meet costs more.

Certainly, there are good gyms and bad gyms when it comes to private or YMCA or XCel. And you are defensive because you are at a YMCA.

I am not DEFENSIVE because I am at a YMCA... I am PROUD that I am at the YMCA.

I guess what I'm saying is, if you haven't experienced a good private gym, you don't know what you're missing.

We "tried" a private club... and we now often go to their open gyms... love the facility... didn't love the coaching style. And this is considered a GOOD club - long time in existence (one of our coaches was a gymnast there years ago), lots of state 1st place banners hanging at all levels, they have sent girls on to D1 gymnastics scholarships, etc.

I don't know you, but I know what you've posted. Kids at our gym would not be competing L4 bars without ever having made a kip in practice (I recall you posting something like that) or having high scores on a certain event in the 6s, or moving up to the next level with what anyone would consider mediocre scores. That DOES happen at YMCA gyms - even yours, which I'm sure you would argue is a good program - and less-than-great private gyms.

Our coach doesn't believe in scratching if you can compete the event safely. Yes, a lot of gyms would rather the girl scratch than to "tarnish" their reputation, but our coaches want the girls to have the experience... it is not über competitive unless the gymnast wants it to be. Our HC came from a private gym - lots of pressure - lots of hours - she ended up quitting because it was too much for her. She chose to make our program more laid back - but at the same time, we have those girls that have been 1st AA at YMCA Nationals in their age groups / levels. That is not easy to do when our little Y is going against teams that practice as much as private clubs and have just as good of set ups as private clubs.

And I think you'd be hard pressed to find any very experienced, knowledgeable coaches here on CB who would argue that YMCA and XCel programs are just as likely to get a kid as far in gymnastics as a good JO program at a private gym.

I never said just as likely. I know that a YMCA gymnast is not as likely as a gymnast from a private club to go as far. Many YMCAs don't practice enough hours for that... but some do - not mine, but some. And the Xcel program at Bronze-Silver may be a better option for some gymnasts than L1-L3. I am sorry, but I hate the mill circle. If it weren't for that one skill, my YG would already have moved up, but she has had to spend time on that - time that could be devoted to working more on her kip (which she is now back to working on). From being involved in the Xcel Forum, I know that many gyms use XB and XS as a gateway into their JO programs, so choosing to allow a little gymnast to start out in Xcel at a low level would not necessarily preclude them from competing JO later. Our gym does not use an Xcel level below Gold. Our Gold gymnasts are competing skills somewhere between New L3/4 and New 6/7. Our Platinum gymnasts are competing skills ranging from L5 to L8.

Just my two cents.

I appreciate that. But I firmly believe "Anyone who wants to do gymnastics SHOULD be allowed to participate. There are a thousand paths that you can take - the goal is to find the right one for you."

 

[kandkfunk]

This is such a hard topic because Xcel varies so much across the country. In our area, it really isn't that competitive. There may be a couple platinum or diamond gymnasts, but those are almost always girls who have moved over from JO and topped out at level 8 or so. Although some meets have the same JO judges, Xcel only requires that you be a professional member in order to judge the meet, which means we often see coaches as judges. That is one way they keep the entrance fees lower.

I am studying to become a JO judge. I hope to take the test this summer. I recently judged an in-house practice meet for our Xcel team. Based on the Xcel judging standards, I was coming up with scores of 9.7 on most events for many athletes. I was not comfortable with those scores, so I knocked a few extra tenths off to make the scores more reasonable. Since it was a practice meet, I didn't want to set them up for high expectations at their regular meets. Well, they scored those really high 9.7-9.9 scores at their regular meets. Based on my review of the Xcel judging standards, the deductions for certain errors are less than what is taken in JO. That's not good or bad. It's just the way the program is designed.

The girls who competed Xcel at our gym had a great season. They had fun and won a lot of hardware. However, very few of those girls would have been successful in the JO stream based on their abilities.

Again, I think there are vast differences regionally. Until USAG gets serious about leveling the playing field for Xcel across the country, you are going to continue to see these regional differences in the level of competiveness in Xcel.

 

[raenndrops]

I think this is very accurate and why we need to be aware that this opinion thing is a two way street.

Like you, our YMCA gymnastics programs are NOT competitive. Our local Y doesn't even own a single rail low bar. They will teach you some tumbling and have you walk along a low beam. Their "vault" is that old school pommel horse type vaul from the 80s. That is my "Y reality".

And in my DD's club, I'm sorry, but we used Xcel/Prep Op for girls who just didn't have the chops to move up to L7. These girls weren't lazy or dumb or smelly. They just had fear issues or a lower fitness level or just didn't want to live, sleep and breathe gymnastics. They were wonderful young ladies. But they weren't uber talented phenoms. That is my "xcel reality".

So when I approach a question asking about YMCA or Xcel, my answer is colored by my personal experience.

And isn't that AWESOME! So many perspectives to be offered up here.

It is awesome that there are so many perspectives. I understand that everyone has their own reality with what they have experienced. I use my personal experience... plus what I learn from others when I weigh in on a question. In this way, I am not completely locked into what I have personally experienced. At my YMCA, all levels of team practice 7.5 hours a week - IF they attend all 3 days, arrive on time, and don't leave until practice is over. I know that other YMCAs practice more (or less) hours than we do. Some top out at 16-20 hours, some have 2 tiers of team - the top flight competes in YMCA League meets AND USAG meets and the other tier only competes in the YMCA league. Both tiers are eligible for YMCA Nationals.
For Xcel - Our gym uses it for girls that are older, who have competed at least Old 4/ New 3 and who want to be able to do Optional routines, but have not advanced as far as new L6. They continue practicing the same number of hours and rotate with our other Optionals. We have girls in Xcel Gold and Xcel Platinum. They go to the same meets as the rest of our girls. They have the same judges, and are judged (based on their requirements) just as harshly as the JO girls. If they weren't, then my OG would have a 9.0 on beam by now.

 

[Quadqueen]

I appreciate that. But I firmly believe "Anyone who wants to do gymnastics SHOULD be allowed to participate. There are a thousand paths that you can take - the goal is to find the right one for you."

I'll agree with you on this.

It's a great program for kids who don't want to devote the time and money that is necessary to succeed in JO. That's all I'm saying.

It is awesome that there are so many perspectives. I understand that everyone has their own reality with what they have experienced. I use my personal experience... plus what I learn from others when I weigh in on a question.

And my opinions on this are not in a bubble. All the Y programs in our area are run like the one my DD was at, not just DD's. I understand there are some programs that are more serious with more hours, but most are not, and I stand by that statement.

 

[raenndrops]

And my opinions on this are not in a bubble. All the Y programs in our area are run like the one my DD was at, not just DD's. I understand there are some programs that are more serious with more hours, but most are not, and I stand by that statement.

I know that there are at least 111 YMCAs in 21 states that must take it at least a little seriously... seriously enough to travel to Florida in July to compete at YMCA Nationals. Of course, 26 of those teams are from Ohio... 17 are from Pennsylvania... 11 are from Wisconsin... 7 from Massachusetts... 6 from Connecticut... 6 from New York... and 5 from California.

 

[my4buffaloes]

In my neck of the woods the Xcel program is the lesser program - but it still has a place. I have a friend in a different part of the country whose gym uses the Xcel program for the young phenoms that are too young to compete otherwise. Her dd is 5 and has the skills of a level 4 - she doesn't want to wait 2 more years before ever starting to compete at the level she is capable of. So they compete now as Xcels and she is doing fabulous. There is a place for it - but unless you transfer over to the JO program at some point it will cap out - long before level 10.

 

[raenndrops]

In my neck of the woods the Xcel program is the lesser program - but it still has a place. I have a friend in a different part of the country whose gym uses the Xcel program for the young phenoms that are too young to compete otherwise. Her dd is 5 and has the skills of a level 4 - she doesn't want to wait 2 more years before ever starting to compete at the level she is capable of. So they compete now as Xcels and she is doing fabulous. There is a place for it - but unless you transfer over to the JO program at some point it will cap out - long before level 10.

Diamond Level can compete roughly L7-L9 skills... but you have to have a gym that competes Diamond for that to happen.

 

[Quadqueen]

I know that there are at least 111 YMCAs in 21 states that must take it at least a little seriously... seriously enough to travel to Florida in July to compete at YMCA Nationals. Of course, 26 of those teams are from Ohio... 17 are from Pennsylvania... 11 are from Wisconsin... 7 from Massachusetts... 6 from Connecticut... 6 from New York... and 5 from California.

And a Google search just showed me the qualifying score to get to YMCA Nationals is a 31 or a 32. Sorry, but that's not my idea of a highly competitive, hard-to-qualify-for meet. It is a big, optional meet for the girls whose parents want to pay to travel there so they can say their DDs went to YMCA Nationals. I'm sure the girls have a great time, and that's wonderful.

Honestly, I don't want to argue with you about this. I'm glad you're proud to be part of a YMCA program. To each his own.

 

[raenndrops]

And a Google search just showed me the qualifying score to get to YMCA Nationals is a 31 or a 32. Sorry, but that's not my idea of a highly competitive, hard-to-qualify-for meet. It is a big, optional meet for the girls whose parents want to pay to travel there so they can say their DDs went to YMCA Nationals. I'm sure the girls have a great time, and that's wonderful.

Honestly, I don't want to argue with you about this. I'm glad you're proud to be part of a YMCA program. To each his own.

I never said it was hard to qualify for... but it IS a highly competitive meet.
Just because the qualifying score is 31 or 32 doesn't mean that gyms will necessarily take girls who barely make it. And it takes a lot to medal at Nationals... 3 age groups per level for Levels 3-7 and Xcel... up to 33 girls in each age group... top 1/3 get awards. Our team (practicing 7.5 hours a week) had a girl at old L5 take 1st AA against girls that practice more hours and have more equipment. At Level 8, they have 2 age groups (plus Masters for girls competing after the summer of their senior year). There are 2 days of competition at that level and they do name actual National Champions. In the Championship division, L9 and L10 compete against each other as one level. They have the same age groups as L8. They name National Champions too.

 

[twinmomma]

This sounds to me like one more version of the "mommy wars". Breast is best, co-sleep or not, public school or private, on and on and on. Why do we do this to ourselves, each other, and our children? Why can't we simply be supportive and revel in the fact that there are so many options for kids to compete in gymnastics. I don't hear the baseball or soccer parents on the teams my son plays on having these discussions.

Let's be honest. The likelihood of ANY competitive gymnast making the pinnacle of the sport (Olympic, or even D1 scholarship) is small, REGARDLESS of the type of program they are in. It's a numbers game, pure and simple. So why do we have to beat each other over the head with what's better, what isn't, etc.? In my area, for example, there are VERY FEW Xcel programs past silver, and there aren't many programs in general. YMCA gymnastics is non existent. So what??? So we seek what makes sense for our kids and what's available. Like anything else in the mommy war bucket we make the best decisions with the information we have and what's accessible.

I get really irritated with the elitist attitude about the non-JO programs. It even has happened in our own gym. Who cares? Enjoy the fact that all these kids are getting to enjoy the sport they love. Period. And I'll tell you, after watching the girls at Xcel all season, I'm incredibly impressed with the skill set and how competitive they are. These girls would give LOTS of JO girls a run for their money. But again, who cares?

 

[MILgymFAM]

I agree that some programs are summarily looked down upon. At our (private, non-profit) gym right now there are girls competing JO, IGC, and Xcel. The Xcel girls and JO girls go to the same meets, share the same judges, and all the girls (roughly level by level) train together. At our gym Xcel is used for two things: girls starting old (like my DD) and girls who don't want more training hours. There is movement between the three teams, and even overlap. And Xcel in our region is definitely competitive. I think the issue is that every region, and even every individual gym, uses their programs differently. Some gyms treat these programs as inferior and some do not, but it's the inferior attitude that seems to stick. I know there were YMCA gyms at our 6/7 & Xcel state meet, and they did fantasticly. My daughter happened to notice they seem to have better sportsmanship than a lot of the other clubs too.

 

[Pickle]

My older daughter competes Excel. Not sure what younger daughter will do. They want her for JO, but we will most likely put her in the excel stream as well. In our area, Excel is very competitive. Our gym, and most of the gyms we compete against have girls at the diamond level. Our silver floor routine includes a ROBHSBT. Girls who can't do the bt do a RO double back handspring. The silver beam routine competes a back walkover. At our gym the bronze and silver levels are the same. They don't get their own routines until they are in gold. We have the same judges at excel meets that we have at JO meets. Some of the meets both JO and Excel go to, others is one or the other.

 

[NutterButter]

Hi! I’m a long time lurker, first time poster. You’ll get a longer post because I’m new.

I have experience in both Xcel and JO as my DD competed for 1 year as Silver then moved to JO and competed this past season as a L4 (and now trains L5). I found my way to this forum several months before DD was invited to join JO and at the time I didn’t know much about JO other than it was more intense than Xcel. I was thrilled that my DD was part of Xcel. Most gyms in my area use the Xcel program for kids who for various reasons don’t fit into JO (late starter, cost, talent and time). At my gym, kids are picked for development team by age 6 and there’s virtually no transferring into this group once it forms each year. Scoring at Xcel meets is more generous than JO meets but I don’t feel like this is doing a disservice to either track. (On average DD scored two points higher AA in Xcel but she did well in both. I’ve also read here on the ‘Bucket that our state scores low so maybe that’s part of it. Scores of 38 AA are rare in both L4 and Xcel.)

Sometimes I get a little bummed when I read comments about Xcel not being as serious when the implication is that the girls aren’t as serious about or dedicated to gymnastics. My observation is that most of the Xcel kids take gym pretty seriously. Most gyms train hours equivalent to L4/L5 and for many this means that gym is their only activity (especially for middle school kids which is the most prevalent age group in my state for Xcel). Many of these kids have aspirations of doing high level skills and/or competing in college. I live in a college town with a D1 team and the college meets are always full of Xcel and Optional kids who themselves are coming from their own meet they just competed in. The Xcel kids live and breathe gymnastics as much as anyone else. Sure, they may not have the talent, time due to age or other resources to get to L10 but that doesn’t mean they don’t love the sport and dream big.

After DD switched to L4, I was asked by many if JO was different and of course it is! Her progression was slowed down compared to what the Xcel kids do and so much more time is spent on strength/conditioning. The experience of competing is the same though. The excitement of going to gymnastics practice several times a week is the same. The comments from parents, kids and coaches during my DD’s transition were so interesting! At one point someone asked if she was enjoying being part of the “real” team more than Xcel. This made DD sad because she thought she was part of a ‘real’ team before.

Personally, I celebrate ALL of these gymmies who are passionate about gymnastics. It’s awe- inspiring to see video clips of a young phenom or a perfect 10 floor routine but it’s also inspiring to read about a kid getting their giant for the 1st time.

 

[motigymnasticsmom]

We have experience with a Xcel program. I read all of the rules, been to two years worth of meets, etc, etc. I like the Xcel program for what USAG is trying to make it. I think in the near future, we will not be having these kind of discussions about Xcel. But, from my observations there are several things that irk me about the program also or the way it is used. The main thing is that many gyms abuse the program. Meaning they weave girls in and out of compulsaries and xcel, uptrain 2-3 levels and sandbag xcel girls. I don't know how bad this is in compulsaries, but, I get the conclusion it's not that bad. Second, many gyms do send their girls who they wouldn't take a second look at, to Xcel; to a much inferior coach, knowing that the girls will not go far with the sport. These gym owners are just using Xcel as a second recreational program; to feed their "real" team program. Third is that it seems that some of the floor routines seem to be really watered down. Girls were scoring higher at our last meet who had much less dance moves in their routines!!!!