WAG 8th grade Verbal recruit

[Deleted member D3987]

It is changing, it has changed a lot in the last 5 years from what I understand, and has gotten much worse. This impacts lots of kids, not just the lucky ones who end up getting the spots at the top 20 schools. Verbal commits before September of sophomore year should be banned. Contacts with the kids, parents and club coaches to discuss specific kids should be limited. Will there be cheaters. Yes. If they get caught they should be sanctioned (the colleges programs). That's the only way it will be stopped. This great advertising translates to some degree into enrollment, prestige and money to clubs. They aren't going to stop it, because their monetary incentives are otherwise (they are after all for-profit businesses like most of the rest of us), and apparently USAG does not care about early recruiting and its impact on many elementary age athletes. USA gymnastics is of course very much an "insiders" club at many levels, very intensely interested in selecting and developing great athletes starting with young kids to dominate at the elite world level. And it's fun for us to be doing great at world competition. But this is not Romania or Russia or China where the reality of human rights for children falls far short of what is on paper. I don't give the top 20 Div 1 programs an ethical pass, nor do I give the club of the year a pass,or USAG. They should be providing leadership on fixing this. They aren't.

okay, ENOUGH. USA Gymnastics does care and discusses these things. USA Gymnastics is NOT an "insiders" club at any level. STOP IT!

again folks, USA Gymnastics is originally United States Gymnastics Federation. my mentors sued the AAU to wrest control of gymnastics from the AAU because we were falling behind on a world stage.

after this was decided in favor of my mentors, Frank Bare became the 1st executive director of our National Governing Body named United States Gymnastics Federation now known to all of you as USA Gymnastics.

the USOC or United States Olympic Committee issued the Charter as the National Governing Body for gymnastics to the United States Gymnastics Federation. around 1992, the USOC had ALL of the NGB's change their name to USA ***** (whatever sport) if they were the governing body for an Olympic Sport. USA Gymnastics is still United States Gymnastics Federation in the original papers and Charter.

now, USA Gymnastics as well as any other NGB for Olympic Sports and their athletes have one job and one job only. and i'm paraphrasing cause it's to late for me to find the Charter...but if you really want me to i'll find it.

their job is to provide athletes to the USOC to represent the United States of America in International Competitions, Pan American Games, World Championships and the Olympic Games. this is the sole reason for the existence of ANY NGB.

therefore, it is the duty as the NGB in which they are ALL accountable to the USOC in any Olympic Sport to be "very intensely interested in selecting and developing great athletes starting with young kids to dominate at the elite world level." this is their job, for without it we would not have any teams/athletes to compete on a world stage with the likes of "Romania or Russia or China".

i have told you all that the NCAA is an approved drug cartel. these issues need to be taken up with them. USA Gymnastics does the best that they can but the NCAA does not answer to them. in fact, they answer to no one.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

Is it possible to sonogram a commitment?????

lol!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[raenndrops]

Ok, lol, this all got me to thinking.
I know of a 7th grader.... she COULD do online school for one year and be a 10th or 11th grader. If she continues until until it is time for her local brick and mortar school to start in the fall, she could EASILY be a senior with only a couple credits to go (yes, she is that smart). By switching back, the local HS converts her online courses into their equivalent courses for credit (thus they meet NCAA guidelines when her transcript is reviewed). This would mean that at the start of her 8th grade year, she would be a senior... and recruitable... and still have that young body type that college coaches "appear" to like if you believe the hype.
Now to just get her to L10 in the next 2 months

 

[Deleted member D3987]

yes, that could happen. but it would be a first. currently, there is no minimum age to compete NCAA. but if your hypothetical were ever to occur? you can bet the NCAA would drop the anvil on that one and make a rule creating a minimum age. if they didn't, this would open up a pandora's box of liability. think football...and a 15 year old 150lb lineman playing D1 football.

 

[raenndrops]

yes, that could happen. but it would be a first. currently, there is no minimum age to compete NCAA. but if your hypothetical were ever to occur? you can bet the NCAA would drop the anvil on that one and make a rule creating a minimum age. if they didn't, this would open up a pandora's box of liability. think football...and a 15 year old 150lb lineman playing D1 football.

That's what I thought...

 

[iwannacoach]

Sonogram + 150lbs...... noooooooooooo

 

[Midwestmommy]

If USA gymnastics has one job and one job only, then why are we paying dues for all of those kids who Marta would not look twice at, ever? Saying that tongue in cheek. if their only job is to produce top elites, whose job is it to look out for the best interests of elementary age children? Surely it's not just us stupid parents.

There is a problem with early recruiting and of course it won't get fixed by those pretending the problem doesn't exist.

Though Dunno I know you are generally very quick to criticize parents and defend anything and everything about the elite program and those who control it, sorry, no way can the early recruiting problem be blamed on delusional parents. Bologna. I have a good friend going through the process in another sport and it is indeed very real.

In any business and organization there are "insiders" who have most of the real control. To say this isn't happening in USA Gymnastics is delusional. It's a small world in gymnastics and the world of elite gymnastics is even smaller and "clubbier." This is true of the elite level at most sports. The drug cartel comparison doesn't fly with me as trying to use an outrageous metaphor to discredit the notion that USA Gymnastics is clubby and political. Of course it is. You also once said there are NO politics involved. I've never worked at a company or been involved in an organization where navigating the internal politics wasn't crucial in knowing how to get things done. Your organization is no different and is far from "above it all."

There is a problem with early recruiting in this sport. I do understand that club coaches aren't going to be the ones to fix it, that's obvious. Legally you and they and the college coaches are fine, because verbal commitments are a huge loophole in the process. That doesn't mean there isn't a problem.

 

[cbifoja]

I know that Dunno is more than capable of defending himself but I just don't agree that he is "quick to criticize parents". I've had the privilege of asking him several questions over the past couple of years pertaining to my daughter and he's been nothing but helpful. I don't pay him tuition and he takes time to respond to all sorts of questions not only from me but from other parents as well.

 

[gymgal]

Ok, lol, this all got me to thinking.
I know of a 7th grader.... she COULD do online school for one year and be a 10th or 11th grader. If she continues until until it is time for her local brick and mortar school to start in the fall, she could EASILY be a senior with only a couple credits to go (yes, she is that smart). By switching back, the local HS converts her online courses into their equivalent courses for credit (thus they meet NCAA guidelines when her transcript is reviewed). This would mean that at the start of her 8th grade year, she would be a senior... and recruitable... and still have that young body type that college coaches "appear" to like if you believe the hype.
Now to just get her to L10 in the next 2 months

I know this was in jest, but it brings up a point I would like clarification on. Even though the tradtional high school might award credit to the student for courses taken outside, I believe the NCAA and colleges would still validate coursework based on what was actually taken, in other words they would require the transcript of the other school, with course descriptions.

 

[happychaos]

now take this same girl at a college camp. a college coach WILL NOT go up to this kid and state "we have a full athletic scholarship waiting for you when you graduate high school".

this would be a HUGE RULE VIOLATION. does everyone understand this? .

A L10 in our gym was just offered a scholarship by a D1 school that she had never even thought of attending. She was 100% pursued by the school, and told they have a scholarship waiting for her. She is several years away from being able to sign an LOI.

If it's true that college coaches are NOT really offering scholarships to young gymnasts, then there is one heck of a communication breakdown between gymnasts, coaches, families, and the gymnastics community.

If all of these early verbals are really just the misunderstandings of eager gymnasts, then I would think that college coaches would have spoken up and put an end to it. It wouldn't be that difficult to band together and state that they will not discuss scholarships until Jr. year, and if anyone claims they have an offer earlier than that they are wrong. Problem solved. It seems like college coaches are the ones who really have the power to change this.....

 

[gymgal]

While I am sure there are lots of young girls coming home from camp with stories of what the coach said, vs what they really meant, I just can't see club owners allowing their gymnasts to publicly announce a commitment without validating this with the college coaches. Promoting false information jepordizes their reputation. This is what I can't get past with this particular case. This gym is not new to the college recruiting game. They know how it works. So i really don't think this is simply a case of a girl getting starry eyed from a camp discussion. Now, it is very possible the college coach offered a 'lets see how it goes, we are very interested', to which the family decided they would commit on their end. But again, I dont see the hc at that gym allowing anything publicly announced if she didnt have reasonable assurance fron the school. Time will tell.

 

[gymgal]

coaches - what does your gym do in situations like this, where a girl comes home from camp with stories of offers? do you dispel them right away? do you call the college coaches to see what's up? when you have coaches come into your gym and make offers to your gymnasts, do you allow them to publicly announce? do you wait until a certain timeframe? say, sophomore year? i am curious because on collegegymfans, they show which spots available and filled, often times they are filled but no gymnast names are listed, leading me to believe neither the club owner nor the college chooses to announce the gymnast names.

 

[Muddlethru]

This whole thread is just unbelievably confusing. The NCAA rules are quite clear in their recruiting process. So early verbal commitments are indeed a violation of its rules. So, I believe much of what dunno states. However, as with most rules, there are always law breakers and loopholes. I personally do not know anyone who has verbally committed in 8th, 9th or 10th grade. And I do not believe everything I hear or read. In fact, I am as skeptical as they come. But it is quite difficult to believe with all the media, that early verbal commits are a figment of a gymnast's, her parent's imagination. On the other hand, I can also see how difficult it may be for college coaches to go on record that a child is lying and has not been offered a verbal commitment at their school or even was offered a verbal commitment. It is such a sticky situation. But at P&G there were announcements that some young gymnasts had verbal commitments. News is not always accurate and reporters don't always check their sources but to declare publicly their child has verbally committed would lead me to think they have more that their child's excited proclamations or a parent's delusions; that is not to say this does not happen. But it just can't be the case all the time. I doubt though we will ever get to the bottom of this, unfortunately.

P.S. I agree with cbifoja. Dunno is an unbelievably generous and helpful expert in the field of gymnastics. He does not think twice about helping people.

 

[raenndrops]

I know this was in jest, but it brings up a point I would like clarification on. Even though the tradtional high school might award credit to the student for courses taken outside, I believe the NCAA and colleges would still validate coursework based on what was actually taken, in other words they would require the transcript of the other school, with course descriptions.

With the *stupid* Common Core State Standards, course descriptions for the same class at different public schools in the state are the same. NCAA does not like it when classes are "self-paced" because someone could technically take more than 9 months to finish a class... although my students always finish well ahead of schedule - that is why I have my students transfer back to their home school before graduation. Our local district converts the CORE classes. The only courses from the transcript that NCAA could question would be the electives - which don't matter anyways. Also, I could always go with a different (NCAA-Compliant) online school, but it is harder to accelerate through because you can only go so far ahead.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

If USA gymnastics has one job and one job only, then why are we paying dues for all of those kids who Marta would not look twice at, ever? Saying that tongue in cheek. if their only job is to produce top elites, whose job is it to look out for the best interests of elementary age children? Surely it's not just us stupid parents.

There is a problem with early recruiting and of course it won't get fixed by those pretending the problem doesn't exist.

Though Dunno I know you are generally very quick to criticize parents and defend anything and everything about the elite program and those who control it, sorry, no way can the early recruiting problem be blamed on delusional parents. Bologna. I have a good friend going through the process in another sport and it is indeed very real.

In any business and organization there are "insiders" who have most of the real control. To say this isn't happening in USA Gymnastics is delusional. It's a small world in gymnastics and the world of elite gymnastics is even smaller and "clubbier." This is true of the elite level at most sports. The drug cartel comparison doesn't fly with me as trying to use an outrageous metaphor to discredit the notion that USA Gymnastics is clubby and political. Of course it is. You also once said there are NO politics involved. I've never worked at a company or been involved in an organization where navigating the internal politics wasn't crucial in knowing how to get things done. Your organization is no different and is far from "above it all."

There is a problem with early recruiting in this sport. I do understand that club coaches aren't going to be the ones to fix it, that's obvious. Legally you and they and the college coaches are fine, because verbal commitments are a huge loophole in the process. That doesn't mean there isn't a problem.

1st bold: because that is Marta's job and that of the selection committee. and it's everyone's dues and those of sponsors that support the elite program.

2nd bold: i didn't say the problem was the stupid parents. i said one of the causes is the dialogue that takes place between an athlete and a college coach at a camp and then it gets blown out of proportion by the kid and the parents interpretation of what their kid told them. i also included a few bad college coaches and a few lying club coaches. i don't discriminate.

3rd bold: delusional parents are part of the problem. when they tell other people that their child received a "full athletic scholarship" to wherever, it's easy for us to fact check and find out that it never happened and is a lie. happens all the time. you wouldn't know this cause you're not there yet.

4th bold: i am not delusional and you are wrong.

5th bold: this is correct but there is no glass ceiling. anybody can do it if they put in the work. the opportunity is there for everyone. and there is nothing "clubbier" about the elite level. you're wrong.

6th bold: it's not outrageous. they are a legal drug cartel.

7th bold: USA Gymnastics IS NOT clubby and political. you're wrong. you don't know any of the hard working and dedicated people that run USAG. you also don't know any of the personnel running the ranch. and you certainly don't know Marta and her life's work and dedication to gymnastics which she has demonstrated for 40 years. you also don't know Steve Penny. you don't know his twins do gymnastics at Deveau's. and you don't know the kind of Executive Director that he is and what he does in policy to protect ALL of the kids in gymnastics and to ensure that all that are involved are not encumbered or obstructed in all of the opportunities that gymnastics has to offer. regretfully, you're dead wrong.

8th bold: you're wrong again. USA Gymnastics is the leader and in the forefront of any other NGB. the organization is not perfect but IS above all the rest.

9th: i said that there is a problem. we agree on this one. but don't look to us to change what is taking place. that responsibility squarely falls on the shoulders of the legal drug cartel and their coaches. USA Gymnastics, or any other NGB can not dictate policy to the NCAA. Nor can the USOC do anything about them and their policies either. early recruitment is a problem that can only be remedied by the very organization that is allowing it to happen.

 

[Midwestmommy]

I'm glad that you could get all those "you are wrongs" out if your system before you reluctantly admitted I was right on the last two points. I agree you help other parents in here. But anyone who dares to give any criticism of USAG or anything we see happening in the "system" and you come out with guns blazing saying we are dumb parents who don't know anything.

I'm not wrong on any of the points I made. I also don't disagree with your comments about a lot if the great work that is done. Organizations that can only respond to criticism by trying to squash the discussion or tell anyone who dares to speak up that they are too dumb or too ignorant to have a valuable opinion, well peruse the history books...

There is a problem with early recruiting in this sport. It is not good for any of these K through 6th graders.

It is not kids coming home from camp with stories.

 

[gymgal]

Dunno, I do believe you have exceeded your total word count for the year in the past 12 hours. We are so used to your one liners (and one worders in most instances). You are shocking a lot of people. .

I don't think dunno blindly supports USAG. He has provided both sides of issues on several occasions. I do, however, believe that USAG is part of this problem because the club coaches are part of the problem and they are governed by USAG. These coaches are allowing the discussions to take place at earlier and earlier ages. Certainly, it is a minority at the moment but it appears to be increasing as coaches and parents worry about missing the golden opportunity.

 

[happychaos]

2nd bold: i didn't say the problem was the stupid parents. i said one of the causes is the dialogue that takes place between an athlete and a college coach at a camp and then it gets blown out of proportion by the kid and the parents interpretation of what their kid told them. i also included a few bad college coaches and a few lying club coaches. i don't discriminate.
QUOTE]

Well, the L10 at our gym that just received a full scholarship offer has never even visited the state the school is in. As I said before, she was pursued 100% by the school. She did not attend camp, and isn't even sure if she is interested in this school. And she is years away from being able to sign an LOI. Are these college coaches breaking the rules?

Dunno, could you offer a comment on the specific case of Hunter? Do you think she and her coaches have misunderstood UTAH's commitment to her? She goes to a reputable gym, with experienced coaches. Why would they allow her to make these claims is they aren't true?

I understand your desire to speak in broad generalizations, but I feel like you are avoiding discussing details. If you don't want to comment on Hunter, how about some of the elite girls that have announced full scholarships, but aren't old enough to sign LOI? I find it hard to believe that Elite level gymnasts are so confused that they don't know what a university is offering to them.

 

[Midwestmommy]

Change only happens when people are incented to change or they are penalized in a meaningful way if they don't change. Club coaches have no incentive to change this in the short term. In fact their short term incentives are the opposite.

Trying to do their best for a given athlete and family, prestige and therefore money for their business, power, relationships with college coaches, these are pressures not to fix the problem. the only ones who can fix it are the NCAA, with stricter rules and painful sanctions to Div 1 programs who cheat. Club owners are not in the position to fix it, though yes they are up their elbows in the process.

They could as a group give some feedback to the NCAA but as you can see from Dunno's reaction (assuming he is representative) that's not likely to happen. They don't have any short term incentives to change it.

 

[wandrewsjr]

This whole thread is just unbelievably confusing. The NCAA rules are quite clear in their recruiting process. So early verbal commitments are indeed a violation of its rules. So, I believe much of what dunno states. However, as with most rules, there are always law breakers and loopholes. I personally do not know anyone who has verbally committed in 8th, 9th or 10th grade. And I do not believe everything I hear or read. In fact, I am as skeptical as they come. But it is quite difficult to believe with all the media, that early verbal commits are a figment of a gymnast's, her parent's imagination. On the other hand, I can also see how difficult it may be for college coaches to go on record that a child is lying and has not been offered a verbal commitment at their school or even was offered a verbal commitment. It is such a sticky situation. But at P&G there were announcements that some young gymnasts had verbal commitments. News is not always accurate and reporters don't always check their sources but to declare publicly their child has verbally committed would lead me to think they have more that their child's excited proclamations or a parent's delusions; that is not to say this does not happen. But it just can't be the case all the time. I doubt though we will ever get to the bottom of this, unfortunately.

P.S. I agree with cbifoja. Dunno is an unbelievably generous and helpful expert in the field of gymnastics. He does not think twice about helping people.

OK, I am also very confused now, too. I know of many girls who announced verbal commitments this past summer and they had just finished their freshman years.(will graduate in 2017) Of course the colleges don't promote this, as it is my understanding these are verbal, non-binding commitments between the athletes and coaches, not the university. But it has been my understanding that these commitments are almost always honored by the coaches, as it would harm their reputation with future recruits to rescind them. Are we/they all confused?!