Difference between class and camp

[Bella's Mom]

Let me preface by saying that I am NOT calling my daughter's coach to the carpet. This is not an indictment on her professional judgment or ability. I love our gym and the coaches are wonderful. This is a not understanding and therefore curious question.....

At gym, Bella has been spotted on ROBHS for months. She isn't given the opportunity to try it on her own. But after three days at camp, she is now throwing unspotted ROBHS BHS.

Why such a disparity????

I have the same question for vault. At gym, she vaults only the L4 vault on a resi. At camp, unspotted handspring into the pit/spotted handspring onto mat. On bars, cleaning up L4 routine (VERY important, I recognize). At camp, squat on dismount.

Is she being held back at gym or pushed a little in camp. Or is it that these places have different overall goals/philosophies at how to make the best gymnast?

 

[justanothergymmom]

The camp has a vested interest in your daughter having fun so that she will want to come back next year. It is exciting to get new skills and therefore I am sure she is having a blast.

Your daughter's coaches have a vested interest in her learning skills with correct form and in a proper progression, so that she will do well at meets and be able to progress through the levels safely. The coaches at her gym may have not introduced that 2nd BHS or the vault table yet, because maybe they were still working on getting her form just the way they wanted it...it can be very hard to undo bad form when skills are introduced before their time...

*ooops! My apologies, Bella's Mom...I just saw that this was a question for coaches! Feel free to disregard my post...

 

[Gymdad2]

I agree, and this is why dd's coach does not encourage team parents to send kids to camps, especially the younger girls. He says it is a waste of time for him to un-teach bad habits.

 

[Bella's Mom]

*ooops! My apologies, Bella's Mom...I just saw that this was a question for coaches! Feel free to disregard my post...

Please, no apologies. I have to pick a prefix so I always pick the most relevant one but I don't consider it exclusive at all. I absorb as many viewpoints as possible as I sort through my own.

I found myself wondering if it was just a "different environment" force at work.

It seems counterproductive for camps not stress good form. My way of thinking is that if a kid goes home with poor form, the coach will complain to the parent, and the parent will be less apt to send their child away to camp next summer. I mean ultimately, a camp is a business and they need to have customer service to survive. If they are hurting kids (by pushing tricks before the gymnast is ready) or teaching with no focus on form (providing a poor product), they won't stay in business.

As a teacher, they caution us about not expecting only what has been shown from a kid, but rather to show the student that you believe they can do more and to push them towards reaching the higher level. Of course, no one breaks a neck from reading about photosynthesis, but the philosophy seems valid to me. So I wonder if coaches kind of get in a rut about what a kid can do versus maybe pushing them a bit. ??? I don't know, I'm just thinking out loud here.

I do recognize that Bella does need to be held back some for her own safety as well as form. The minute she has landed a certain trick, no matter how ugly (and frequently they are very very ugly), she is already thinking ahead. Case in point, she got that ROBHS BHS at camp and is already talking about RO BT and punch fronts. And yet, she has work to do on that second BHS (legs come apart).

I'm certainly not questioning our coach. She has turned our gym's competitive teams around and taken them to the next level so obviously she knows what she is doing. She doesn't discourage us from sending our kids to camp. She actually wanted to take the team to Woodward this summer but couldn't get everything going in time for enough parents to budget. I fully expect her to take team members to Woodward next summer.

 

[ryantroop]

Great answers, both.I often spot for shape and correction of subtle technique more than for safety. Of course, spotting for safety is also necessary, but after a certain point we want them to focus on their toes, and the little pieces - and giving them less to worry about (making the skill, falling, etc...) Helps them feel the skill out and focus on what we ask.Please note, however, that each coach has their own philosophy on this, and each coach can potentially answer differently. You would be suprised at how many coaches never spot their athletes, and are quite successful. It's a preference, not a necessity (even if I think it should be)

 

[gymdog]

None of my new level 4s have done spotted or unspotted RO BHS yet (in level 4 practice, although many of them "had" it before). I'm sure some of them would go to camp and be allowed to do RO BHS BHS, but it wouldn't really be the right thing to do yet from a technique perspective. Not unsafe, but there is time. Bad habits can be difficult to correct. I'm going to link to Coach Rick's great explanation of "Go slow to go fast" - once correct development skills and habits are in place (habits meaning the body shape they revert to, balancing/adjusting skills to land, and falling safely) then skill development can really pick up. Without it, skill development stalls, OR injury and consistency suffer (or both). For example if a child shortens their body by arching their back and sticking their bottom out, instead of a correct hollow with flat hips, they are at a big risk for overuse injuries.

go SLOW to go FAST — Gymnastics Coaching.com

Edit: And it is very common for camps to let gymnasts do skills they wouldn't be doing at their gym. It's generally more laid back and "fun", and the reason many coaches discourage camps is because they allow kids to try skills, while not unsafe, without the habits that a very conscientious program would be drilling intensely.

 

[lilgymmie7]

I thought most camps have actual coaches and professionals that work there? My older DD went to Lake Owen and that was the case; of course that was 11 yrs. ago. Now with little DD, she has only gone to camp twice and both times it was at her own gym. However, I can say that some coaches do get a 'false' read on a child for certain reasons. I say this because I don't know when or how DD went from a gymnast who listened well to one who didn't, etc. Changing scenery for DD has made a world of difference in something as "simple/complex" as cleaning up her routines. At her new gym they speak her language and is progressing well. Coaches, I am not attempting to speak negatively about anyone by saying 'false' read, but sometimes work gets in my way and I also don't see the child in front of me for who they really are. So, I am just saying, that perhaps little Bella's rambuctious personality has limited her coaches views. I hope I am right Bella's mom. I thought you stated that sometimes she has trouble listening etc. in class... If not, please let me apologize.

 

[10.0]

I have a feeling a lot less people would attend these camps if they only got to work their current level stuff. The camps are for fun and it can be a huge esteem builder to come home with new skills. I usually notice the skills are easy step up skills to the next level. To a kid a squat on is a huge accomplishment but as a coach they are fairly easy to teach and spot, same with going over a vault table as long as the girls level 4 vault is good, and you can double spot this. But to the kid coming home it is an awesome feat.

I would have issue with a camp that allowed them to do crazy skills or was unsafe. Also a lot of times the kids feel more at ease and have less fear to try things like BHS without a spot with different staff. Also these camps are held in summer after competition season ends so while the gym had to concentrate on perfecting routines all year the kids can now relax and do some uptraining and often it happens at camp although it should also happen in the home gym.

 

[gym law mom]

10.0 has an excellent point. How many kids would be begging to go to camp knowing it would be drills and repetitions all day of their current level routines? For a lot less money they can stay home and do that in their own gym.
I've always seen camp as a place to introduce new skills---never to have my gymmie go for 5 days and come home with new competition ready skills. My guess is from Bella's Mom's description the "new" skills her dd was introduced to are in the very beginning stages and something for her to be excited about, but not to be expected to be doing well at this time. Naturally explaining that to a 7 yo can be tough.
I think camp can be more beneficial as the girls get older and know exactly what they need work on. My gymmie goes to LO(and yes they have experienced club and college coaches), but at a teen at L9 she can talk with the coaches about where she needs the help.
So I think camp is a nice glimpse into the future, but then the girls need to come back and get grounded again in reality which is tough for coaches and parents.

 

[emorymom]

As a teacher, they caution us about not expecting only what has been shown from a kid, but rather to show the student that you believe they can do more and to push them towards reaching the higher level. Of course, no one breaks a neck from reading about photosynthesis, but the philosophy seems valid to me. So I wonder if coaches kind of get in a rut about what a kid can do versus maybe pushing them a bit. ??? I don't know, I'm just thinking out loud here.

I'm not a coach and so I have nothing to offer the rest of it, but I think I can field this as an educator.

General education is different from gymnastics because it is entirely possible, in fact probable, that the teaching goals will be *properly* mentored, corrected, reinforced and even self-corrected outside of the classroom. The skills of school are held by most of the child's adult and older child "village" if they are in a functioning community. There is no harm in moving ahead, skipping over, going back, waiting for development to take its course because reading, writing, problem solving, occur every day. I also know multiple families of unschooled children (these are children who are allowed to refuse all formal lesson and drills in academics). They may occasionally have funny gaps but they are not in any fundamental way ignorant of the bulk of the same skills children learn in a more formal system.

Gymnastics is different. It is a rare set of skills at the edge of human potential. It probably wouldn't be incredibly different if you grew up in a gym or an acrobatic troupe and were blessed with amazing vestibulars so you could mimic with accuracy. But that probably describes only a dozen people born every year in the US.

 

[Bella's Mom]

You would be suprised at how many coaches never spot their athletes, and are quite successful. It's a preference, not a necessity (even if I think it should be)

Really? I didn't realize that. That would be interesting to watch just because I thought all coaches had to spot, especially the higher up gymnasts get.

So, I am just saying, that perhaps little Bella's rambuctious personality has limited her coaches views. I hope I am right Bella's mom. I thought you stated that sometimes she has trouble listening etc. in class... If not, please let me apologize.

You are correct. Bella does has focus problems. Now I am happy to say that I've seen a big improvement over the past month, but as we all know, it can take quite some time to overcome reputations and impressions.

To a kid a squat on is a huge accomplishment but as a coach they are fairly easy to teach and spot, same with going over a vault table as long as the girls level 4 vault is good, and you can double spot this. But to the kid coming home it is an awesome feat.

Yes, the vault was a double spot onto mat and yes, she beamed! It was a huge deal to her. Even though I highly suspect that she will be introduced to vaulting table this winter for L5 uptraining, she felt very special to finally get her hands on that table.

My guess is from Bella's Mom's description the "new" skills her dd was introduced to are in the very beginning stages and something for her to be excited about, but not to be expected to be doing well at this time. Naturally explaining that to a 7 yo can be tough.

Oh absolutely NOT competition ready. Even to my untrained eye, her BHS looks "archy". I don't know what the technical term is but I can see her coach insisting that she flatten it out. You all know what I mean by archy right?

General education is different from gymnastics because it is entirely possible, in fact probable, that the teaching goals will be *properly* mentored, corrected, reinforced and even self-corrected outside of the classroom. The skills of school are held by most of the child's adult and older child "village" if they are in a functioning community. There is no harm in moving ahead, skipping over, going back, waiting for development to take its course because reading, writing, problem solving, occur every day. I also know multiple families of unschooled children (these are children who are allowed to refuse all formal lesson and drills in academics). They may occasionally have funny gaps but they are not in any fundamental way ignorant of the bulk of the same skills children learn in a more formal system.

Gymnastics is different. It is a rare set of skills at the edge of human potential. It probably wouldn't be incredibly different if you grew up in a gym or an acrobatic troupe and were blessed with amazing vestibulars so you could mimic with accuracy. But that probably describes only a dozen people born every year in the US.

Thank you so much for this post. I hadn't come even close to thinking through my analogy this deeply. What you typed makes a lot of sense.

 

[Aussie_coach]

It's often the way skills are learned. A coach spent months and months doing the drills and spotting her but then she went into a new exciting environment and perhaps a coach said something a slightly different way and all of a sudden it clicked and she got the skill. That is totally normal.

Training as a gymnast myself I often found I and my team mates always got new skills when our coach was away and we had a different coach. The different coach may just have a different drill or a different set of words which make it click. That did not mean my coach was bad, in fact it meant my coach was good. Our bodies would not have learned the new skill if not for all the drills and preparation done by our coach.

The same goes for your daughter, she would not have learned all those skills in a few days if her coach had not prepared her body well and spent months developing the drills and patiently spotting her..