If you had a magic wand..........

[Iwannabemargo]

and BG said - how would you re-design the system(s), what would you do ?

After reading here I would probably increase the national levels by added a national 5 and 6. That would really then cover all competitive gymnastics. Certainly here in the provinces that would help us to know whats going on.

I would also make all the skills required for each level public knowledge.

 

[Uglybetty]

I'd do a few things:

(1) Better publicise the difference between rec gymnastics and competitive gymnastics. It's pretty easy to slip into a non-competitive gym and believe their hype about "if we see talent we send them to a more competitive gym" (which because you're their cash cow they never do) and because of the age issue then "accidentally" miss the competitive boat;

(2) issue sheets for each level which explain what skills are required and what the deductions will be....oh and preferably accompanied by video's showing what the perfect routine would look like. It's really tough for parents with no gymnastics background to work it all out.

(3) this one is not changing the system so much but anyways.....publicise the rational for the changes that have been made for the next compulsory level quad. There have been debates. Some think the fact the skills are harder means its to weed out the talent earlier. Others think it is to reduce the pressure a bit and that the fact you can now take levels out of age means that late starters can get a chance (in support of this secondary approach it may interest people to hear that our gym recently moved a teenager into elite training....she'd jump straight in at senior level....previously I have no doubt she'd have been told she was too old). If BG or Amanda publicised a short statement explaining "why" it would stop all the guesswork.

(4) enforce a policy of gyms having 1 to 1 meetings with parents to discuss progress/future plans 2 x per year. Or at least a report card 2 x a year.

 

[Jenny]

I agree with the national levels for 6 and 5. I would like to see a cap on start values for Levels 5 and up.

I like the idea of the parent meetings. Some gyms do the report cards already. All a good idea.

I would like to see judges paid. I mean these people work a full week at their 'proper' jobs and then turn out for a 12 hour unpaid day on a weekend. Seriously.

 

[Faith]

I'd like to see talent testing, rather than relying on club coaches, and/or go back to regional/county squads as well as GB.

And yes, levels 6/7, and also clearer progression through regional levels, with difficulty caps and pass marks to reflect the compulsories so clubs can't keep kids level 5 for their entire career. That would also make it easier for kids that develop or start late to cross over to elite grades.

I think I'd ditch some of the ndp grades too. Or let them start much younger - the grade 14 bars could be done by quite a few 4/5/6 year olds I know, including my dd2, who's no phenom )

 

[Uglybetty]

I'd second the talent testing idea. I suspect there are a lot of kids out there who "could" be exceptional but who have slipped through the net because they're in gyms who don't compete at all or who don't do 4 piece.

I was thinking about that as I drove to the station this morning. My friends DD is a tennis player and their central body do a thing each year where each coach is asked to send a few kids to a national assessment centre for testing. The parents then got a report giving an honest assessment of their potential and an action plan for future development. For example, after her assessment my friends DD started having multiple private lessons per week and does it even more in the holidays. The central body then keep track of the development of those kids.

It struck me that sports like cycling also do something similar. Could this in part explain the distinct lack of international medals for WAG (excluding Beth)? The narrower your pool of selection, the less chance you have of finding that something special (the X factor).

 

[Faith]

The sport dd1 is doing have regional invitational talent testing sessions about 4 times a year. Invites happen many ways, coaches visit schools, keep in touch with other sports and coaches -they pass kids between them if they think they'll excel somewhere else. Even if a kid turns up in reception to enquire if there's a coach around they'll pop out and watch them do a few simple exercises, and invite them if they think there's anything there.

Even the royal ballet you can submit photos of set poses and get invited to summer camp.

 

[Jenny]

I'd second the talent testing idea. I suspect there are a lot of kids out there who "could" be exceptional but who have slipped through the net because they're in gyms who don't compete at all or who don't do 4 piece.

Those gyms would probably not send kids to talent testing. The kids who shine at talent testing are usually those who are naturally flexible, have done ballet or have been doing a gym class already. Hard to test for dogged determination, work ethic , parental support etc etc. But I agree many children are missed.

 

[Iwannabemargo]

Sorry Long story

When we first started our gym career we were in a sports hall in a village. It was just big boy and I was standing against the wall and saw a lady I didn't know. I smiled at her, she smiled back and asked where the coffee machine was. We got talking and it transpired her daughter was a national gymnast, down on holiday. They were visiting family and their car broke down. Her daughters coaches had told her that she could not have more than a week off gym and when their trip back was delayed she "HAD" to find a gym and work out.

I was very complimentary about her daughter (who was way more advanced than this little rec class) and she shared her gym journey.

They were a military family and spent some time in South Africa. When this daughter started school at 5/6 they lined all the little children up in the school hall. They had sports scientist from the local college come in and test the children. The tested jumping, throwing running and flexibility etc.

They then called in the parents and told them what sports the children were "ideal" for.

Apparently later on her daughter would be picked up by a mini-bus at 7 am, bussed to the local college, trained for couple of hours, bussed to school. Then at 3 picked up from school, bussed to the gym, trained and then bussed home.

This happened for the rugby players, cricketers etc as well.

 

[Iwannabemargo]

I agree with the national levels for 6 and 5. I would like to see a cap on start values for Levels 5 and up.

I like the idea of the parent meetings. Some gyms do the report cards already. All a good idea.

I would like to see judges paid. I mean these people work a full week at their 'proper' jobs and then turn out for a 12 hour unpaid day on a weekend. Seriously.

Ooh and following on from this - see its been whirling round my brain- I would like judges to come from non-competing clubs. P&F felt that she was scored rather harshly by her old coach on the two occasions she judged her. I can't say for sure but lets just say she came second on beam to a girl who fell off twice when she did a clean ( but not great) routine. Old club was judging, girl who feel off twice old team mate.

 

[Flossyduck]

I used to think I had all the answers, but when you ask the direct question I realise that actually I don't have any!

The current system is too complicated, still too divisive and set up so that by the time you have worked out what is going on it might be too late to change anything and you feel trapped and powerless, whichever stream your child is in. That shouldn't be the case.

So I guess the first thing would be communication. If your daughter is chosen for a competitive pathway, there should be some requirement for an explanation as to the commitment level and how that might build and how their pathway fits into the overall system and why that pathway has been chosen. And yes maybe some simple sheets with the skill progression. This should all be available upfront. I think many coaches forget how completely green parents are and that some of the children have been in the sport for a few months or even weeks and know nothing.

Secondly the progression should be monitored and discussed with parents. If it better/faster than anticipated or indeed slower, there should be opportunities to address it. In that way I guess it's similar to school. You wouldn't just allow your child to go to school and have no idea how they are doing in comparison to targets or national standards and you would expect the school to take action if they were doing better than expected or struggling. You wouldn't just drift in the dark! Ad you could compare the comps to exams and would expect some idea of what level the comp is and the syllabus and so on.

I know that most of that happens internally in a good gym and gymnasts are obviously not just drifting un-monitored. I know that coaches have progression plans and know what each gymnast is working on and so on. And then I think about how to communicate that to parents and it's such a lot of work - where would you start and who in the gym has the time?!

With regard to the competitive structure itself... three streams (as now)- elite levels, national grades, regional grades. All start at the same age but have different difficulty. And if you get a certain mark in one maybe you can 'score out' and move across.

Ok I'm out of ideas!

 

[Iwannabemargo]

Hmm after reading about the American system on here I would be tempted to have one system, scrap the in age- out of age nonsense and just have age groups at comps.

There would be a tacit understanding to make any kind of national team you should be working "in age", however if you make it all the way does it really matter if you are 16 or 20 ?

A lot of invitationals use the levels and then sub divide into age groups - why should we have a 10 year old that has a choice of 3 "exams" with roughly the same skills, and it just depends what stream the club sends them down.

I think that would certainly aid clarity.

I love the fact our cousins over the water can say "Suzie is a 10 year old level 6" and everyone understands what level Suzie is working at and how advanced she is for her age.

 

[Jenny]

Different pathways are needed with different skills because not all gymnasts can or will be able to do the same skills. Eg the press handstand. Very important for elite gymnasts. Therefore it is included in compulsory 3 as a beam mount. If you included that in a 'one size fits all' level then you would be stuck. Many kids will never get that move. Some skills are preps for other skills that will never be needed for most gymnasts. It is about trying to find a balance between challenge and achievability.

I love that skills aren't set like in the US JO system. I love that kids can do set moves for grades and choose their own for levels. I would like a better restriction on difficulty but I love the variety. But the clarity is good for JO.

 

[Iwannabemargo]

I can see your point, re press handstand ( although all the girls who are competitive do it in P&F's gym). I like the fact that its not set in stone too - I don't think I could cope with 600 identical routines.

 

[Flossyduck]

I'm tempted to agree that one stream is easier and you can work at your own rate. The only reason I think more than one is helpful is because it allows all girls to start competing at the same age and to progress through grades or levels appropriate to their ability and also their commitment level. For some girls, regional grades is all they or their family want to do in terms of hours and that should be ok too. If they were all on the same path, then by the time they get to a certain level the hours just have to be big in order to work on those skills and maintain enough condition. At least with club grades you can keep on competing and working up without needing the hours to ramp up. And that does allow the girls who are able and willing to progress at a faster rate.

There's a longer term picture at stake. The girls who want to and are able to think about national level need to be working on different skills from quite a young age and lots of focus on technique and form. Hence the long hours. That would be difficult for girls who just want to compete regionally or county level.


If the ability to switch were easier it would reassure people they are not stuck in one stream. It's the strictness of the streaming, and the appearance that luck and being in the right place at the right time and getting the right coaches attention sets the course for the future, which seems unfair.

Jenny I just read your post before posting this one and you have put what I am trying to say in a much better way!

 

[Faith]

I'm inclined to think one stream too.

My plan would be-

Spring Levels 6-5, regional only (but national rules) min ages as now.
Levels 4-3-2-1 regional to national final. Min ages as now.

Same rules for in and out of age. Just have age groups. Once you pass you move up.

Levels should be as compulsories are now, but slightly more flexibility. So the level 3 press handstand for example, it could be straddle hold, with a bonus for taking it to handstand.

Then have age group voluntaries/invitationals/re-takes in the autumn.

BG/regional talent scouts should be at spring levels and select children to try out for regional/ national squad.

 

[Iwannabemargo]

Like it Faith - best of both worlds

That was kind of what I was aiming to say

 

[Faith]

Or streamline it even further;

Level 1-novice/club. Choice of set skills, should be achievable on 9 hours a week or less. Group by age, minimum age 8 in year of competition. Pass mark to...

Level 2- intermediate/regional. Choice of set skills, achievable on 18 hours a week or less. Minimum age 10, grouped by age. Pass mark to..

Level 3- junior elite. Minimum age 10, grouped by age. Modified Fig depending on age.

Level 4- senior elite.

Have these in the spring, all to national final. Autumn for voluntaries/ invitationals.

 

[Iwannabemargo]

I like the 6 level, purely for inclusiveness.

At P&F gym we have about 20 girls who are competitive ( level 5 plus)

She and her buddy are the youngest doing level 5 out of age hoping to move to level 4 next year - dependent on skills.

The majority of the older girls are level 5/4 and range from 13-16, two are level 3/4, one of those is 13, one 15. If there was a national standard level 6 then more girls could filtre in the competitive stream - maybe making the starting age younger for 6 ?

I know that everyone would love to be elite but for the vast majority of girls its an impossible dream, for reasons other than skill - time, money, geography, lateness of starting, but it would be nice if those girls could still progress.

 

[Jenny]

I honestly don't see that working. The elite requirements are just too hard for most gymnasts. I like the different streams and I like the flexibility to move between them. You can move freely between compulsory and club grades. I would change that to include free movement for national grades too. At the moment once you have competed in a national grade you cannot go back to club grades.

 

[meeeshymoo]

Hard to come up with an alternative that doesnt also have flaws ! .

Have been trying. Quite like the American level system, but would prefer it all to be optionals. Couldnt cope with same music and same routine over and over !. Each level has clearly detailed skills and gymnasts know what they need to achieve.