WAG Level 6 bars question

[kayjaybe]

In dd's meet this weekend, the bars scores for our team were really low. Does anyone know what the points are for different things?

I know dd's was low partially because of missing her kip squat-on. She got both feet on the bar but then fell off. When she returned to the bar, she did a pull-over and then, on the advice of the coach, didn't attempt the squat-on again, but just stepped up to the bar. The coach didn't want them to fall again, thus the step up, but I'm wondering if she would have been better off points-wise doing a cast squat-on.

I generally wouldn't question what the coaches advise, but there are rumblings that this coach is NOT doing a good job on bars coaching, so I'm just curious what is missing. (The rumblings are coming from another coach.)

Here is her routine (actually, all her performances, but the bars is the first Link removed at OP's request.

I know her jump to high bar was sloppy, too. What else can you tell me about her performance?

 

[Muddlethru]

Personally, I think all her scores were a tad low. But I am not a coach or a judge. As far as her bars, some of her casts are below horizontal. I think they have to above horizontal. Her swing on high bar is a little low. I found the potential deductions searching the net. I am sure some in chalkbucket will correct inaccuracies listed below.

STRADDLE OR PIKE GLIDE KIP- Must take off from both feet at the same time ( -0.10).
Do not do a run out glide ( - 0.30).

Make sure your feet lead in the glide swing (up to 0.10 deduction).

Must extend body fully at the end of glide (up to 0.20 deduction).

Legs must fully close at the end of the straddle glide ( - 0.10).

CAST-cast must be a minimum of 30 degrees above horizontal (up to 0.40 deduction).
Show a straight line from shoulders to feet with a hollow chest (up to 0.20 deduction).

CLEAR HIP CIRCLE- Huge pike or arch on upswing or down swing (up to 0.20 deduction for each).
Not reaching 30 degrees above horizontal on the upswing (up to 0.40 deduction).

Hips cannot touch the uneven bars as the upswing finishes ( - 0.80).

Lack of control in to the glide swing (up to 0.10 deduction).

2nd STRADDLE OR PIKE GLIDE KIP- Make sure your feet lead in the glide swing (up to 0.10 deduction).
Must extend body fully at the end of glide (up to 0.20 deduction).

Legs must fully close at the end of the straddle glide ( - 0.10).

CAST SQUAT ON, PIKE ON, OR SOLE CIRCLE- insufficient backwards swing into cast ( - 0.05).
Feet must be placed on the uneven bars side by side at the same time ( - 0.20).

LONG HANG KIP- Make sure to swing near horizontal before doing the kip (up to 0.20 deduction).
CAST- cast must be a minimum of 30 degrees above horizontal (up to 0.40 deduction).
Show a straight line from shoulders to feet with a hollow chest (up to 0.20 deduction).

LONG HANG PULL OVER- Show a small arched position at the bottom of down swing ( - 0.10).
Do not over pike your body (up to 0.20 deduction).

Maintain over grip-hands shouldn't completely release the uneven bars ( - 0.30).

Make sure you do not perform a backwards giant- you must pull hips back to bar ( - 1.0).

UNDERSWING- must contact the gymnastics bar with the mid to lower thighs after completing the long hang pull over and before initiating the underswing (- 0.20).
Maintain a straight hollow body (up to 0.20 deduction).

Thighs may contact the bar but hips MAY NOT! ( - 0.20).

1st COUNTER SWING-hips must reach a minimum of 15 degrees below the level of the high gymnastics bar (up to 0.30 deduction).
Make sure to show a straight line from hips to hands while in a hollow position (up to 0.20 deduction).

DO NOT open hips or body where they are extended over the low gymnastics bar ( - 0.30).

TAP SWING-show a slight arched position at the bottom of the swing ( - 0.10).
Maintain a straight hollow body on the upswing (up to 0.20 deduction).

Feet must reach the high bar height (up to 0.20 deduction).

SECOND COUNTERSWING- Hips must reach the height of the high bar (up to 0.30 deduction).
Makes sure to show a straight line from hips to hands while in a hollow position (up to 0.20 deduction).

Feet should not extend in an arched position over the low gymnastics bar ( - 0.30).

TAP SWING- show a slight arched position at the bottom of the swing.( - 0.10)
Maintain a straight hollow body on the upswing (up to 0.20 deduction).

Feet must reach the high bar height (up to 0.20 deduction).

****CHOOSE ON OF THE FOLLOWING DISMOUNTS

TUCK FLYAWAY-must bend hips and legs a minimum of 135 degrees (up to 0.20 deduction for each angle) must stretch before landing (up to 0.20 deduction).
PIKE FLYAWAY-hips must be a minimum of a 135 degree pike (up to 0.20 deduction).
Must stretch before landing (up to 0.20 deduction).

STRETCHED FLYAWAY- Maintain a straight hollow body position the entire time (up to 0.20 deduction).


Article Source: http://EzineArticles.com/5385719

I've tried to figure out deductions on my daughter's routine. And I've come to the realization that it can drive you insane to fully understand what goes on at the judges table. Your daughter looks good!

 

[coachmolly]

Level 6 bars scoring is known for being tough, so I wouldn't worry too much about the number. Were other gyms getting similar scores on bars? Or were your kids getting blown away?
Besides the fall, it looks like the deductions are just coming from a bunch of small things. And it's not uncommon at this level for lots of girls to go into the first meet with those kinds of problems. I guess it just depends on whether or not the coach is aware of them and plans on ironing them out over the course of the season.
The casts, clear hip, and height on back swings are probably the biggies. The form on the jump to high bar would be an easy place to pick up a few tenths. But it's not a bad start at all for level 6. And I love the leos!

 

[kayjaybe]

Thanks for the feedback.

One of the other teams was blowing our scores away. They were casting into full hand-stands. Should they really be getting more points for that versus the required "above horizontal"? I'm sure there were more things that I couldn't pick up on, but that was a very obvious one.

 

[Pineapple_Lump]

Okay this is a coach/judge view
* She is not really doing a 'glide' kip on the low bar it is more of a HB kip (why is the bar so high?!?!) How will she adapt this technique when she grows?
* Bent arms in her cast, loose through her back
* Clear hip shows no support and major bent arms
* the kip again
* Fall
*Loose body and legs on the jump - This body position is going to make it very dangerous if she should slip off in her catch
* HB cast bent arms and very low
*Swing to 3/4 giant/pullover body position and bent arms
* Swings are low and body position needs work, she is also sticking her head out (usually to look at the bar) which ruins the shape and can cause the gymnast to loose her grip/slip off
* She has tucked her knees before releasing the bar for her flyaway and is leatting go too early

Chances are the girls doing the cast to handstands are significantly stronger and have more refined bar skills overall, hence the bigger scores

 

[gymmomtoo]

Agree with pineapple--the dismount I am sure she lost some on too (not a judge, just from observing years of meets). She doesn't go up--but out. I'll trust pineapple in what your daughter is doing, but I know that judges take a lot off for that. I thought it was a fair score for her routine. (didn't watch the rest of her meet).

As far as the other team doing so much better--I'm guessing they didn't get tenthed to death on things as were stronger throughout the routines--and while judges can't add for doing more than required, the impression the routine leaves in their minds makes a big impact too.

 

[bogwoppit]

That low bar is ridiculously high, which makes the transition to high bar even tougher. She is not a little girl and the bar is above her head. She is dong long hang kips instead of glide kips.

 

[gardenia01]

That low bar is ridiculously high, which makes the transition to high bar even tougher. She is not a little girl and the bar is above her head. She is dong long hang kips instead of glide kips.

I agree. The sooner they fix that the better. My dd did the same thing because she was so small at Level 5 that even with the low bar all the way down, she had to jump up to the bar. She then struggled for quite some time to correct this problem even after she had grown. Also, I do believe the hips are supposed to be even with the high bar on the flyaway. She is very low, as someone mentioned.

 

[coachmolly]

That low bar is ridiculously high, which makes the transition to high bar even tougher. She is not a little girl and the bar is above her head. She is dong long hang kips instead of glide kips.

From the looks of it, there are quite a few taller kids on her team, so I'm guessing they use "one size fits all" bar settings. Definitely not the best route to take, especially with the inherent deductions and safety issues for the smaller kids.
As far as the other team really outscoring your girls, I guess it's a matter of perspective. Are their girls first year level 6s? Is this the very beginning of their season or have they been competing for a few months? If they are working on a similar schedule to your DDs gym, then I would maybe think there is something lacking in her training. But it all depends on what kind of gym you are at and what their expectations are.
Your DDs routines are perfectly acceptable for a first level 6 meet for a middle of the pack gym that isn't training mega hours and doesn't expect their kids to score 37s and sweep the medals. However, that doesn't mean they will be able to compete with gyms that are known for being more competitive. A huge amount of progress can happen over the course of the level 6 season with the right coaching. But if you aren't happy with the coaching on bars, I would speak up now because the skills for level 6 bars are pretty important progressions.

 

[bogwoppit]

We never raised the low bar, taller girls would jump from the mats into a straddled glide kip. I just don't see the need for the low bar to be that high ever.

 

[coachmolly]

We never raised the low bar, taller girls would jump from the mats into a straddled glide kip. I just don't see the need for the low bar to be that high ever.

Less coaching. Kid can't glide? Raise the low bar. Kid can't get the kip out of the clear hip? Raise the low bar. So much easier than actual conditioning and technical work.
(Not that I'm saying this is a good practice, or what the coaches of the OP's DD are doing)

 

[kayjaybe]

Thanks for all the great feedback. She is 10.5 years old (competes age 11 as she turns 11 a few weeks before states), but actually very short. She is only 49 inches tall and the 2nd shortest on her team (even with kids that are 1-2 years younger than her.)

What is an "HB kip"? Still very new to this.

Our gym usually places pretty well overall and dd started out with low scores last year as a 1st year level 5 and increased over the year significantly (score in her first meet w/o any fall was a 7.3 and highest score of the season was a 9.3 on bars). I believe it is the beginning of the season for all the teams, but speaking with someone from the gym that scored well, they really work on bars and train 18 hours/week vs. our 12 hours/week....so that is a huge difference. Even our L10's only train 16 hours/week.

All the feedback was great. I'm going to just keep my mouth shut, but it is helpful to know what I'm looking at. And I was surprised at how low her swings were on the high bar before the dismount. Last year she had much higher/stronger swings by the end of the season, but she could have been thrown by the fall on the kip/squat-on.

If you happened to stick around and watch her beam routine, I was actually thrilled because she has had a huge mental block on the BWO (I've posted about it here) and she nailed it...although I think she went into it too quickly, giving me a bit of a heart-attack.

Thanks, again, for taking the time to view and give such thoughtful feedback!

 

[LiveLoveTumble]

What is an "HB kip"? Still very new to this.

HB kip = high bar kip

 

[Chalky]

Be glad you didn't have me judging! I had a 6.5

 

[bogwoppit]

Be glad you didn't have me judging! I had a 6.5

Can you give the breakdown. It is very helpful to see how the deductions add up.

 

[gymdog]

The bar is mostly not the problem. Personally I might put it lower, but I mean it is possible to do a long hang kip cast to clear hip also. It's not really wrong gymnastically per se but she is getting a deduction on the kips (all of them) because of the glide mechanics. Her first two skills show potential (kip cast pretty good) minus the incorrect mechanics on the glide.

I'd say roughly:
Glide - .1 insufficient extension at the end of the glide
Cast - eh, this was pretty good but probably .1 body shape
Clear hip - Major. At least .5 between how close her hips are to the bar and the bent arms
Glide kip - hard to see but again insufficient extension
Squat on - .05 insufficient cast action into the squat on plus .5 fall

So I have about 1.3 on the low bar

Jump to high - this would be the easiest thing to fix really. .4 for the jump and kip
Cast - .3 height, plus another .1 for the deep pike into the swing. .05 bent arms
Baby giant - .2 bent arms manages to keep rhythm decent and do a good underswing but some judges will still take rhythm there as it wasn't effortless
First swing - .1 to .2...the angle is close but she does it by piking
Swing forward - OK
Second back swing - angle OK, shape - .2
Flyaway - .2 does not swing up to bar before release

 

[MyHappyLife]

Here is a link to the compulsory penalties from USAG that is helpful:
http://usagym.org/PDFs/Women/Junior%20Olympics/penalties_sectionrev.pdf

As others have said, height of casts and swings is a biggie in level 6. Not only does it have to be above horizontal, it has to be at least 30 degrees above horizontal to not be a deduction. (deductions are within a range, based on the judge's perception of what degree the cast/clear hip actually was) Girls who cast all the way to handstand leave no doubt in the judges' minds that they reached that 30 degree mark

 

[CoachGoofy]

Not a WAG judge, but, to echo what half the chalk bucket said:
-those are not glide kips (not only a deduction, but not doing her any favors later!)
-generally low angles (into & out of the free hip, on the casts, everywhere)
-rhythm on the highbar portion
-peely lookin' flyaway
-the jump to the high bar was a bit...loose.

It just doesn't look like a routine yet, to my eye.

 

[littlegirlsdream]

Interesting and helpful to see the routines, scores and feedback. Also scary I too have a level 6 gymie and I know this will be a tough season. Bars in particular. I have to say your daughter had a pretty good first meet. It should just get better from here A side note my DD is 48 inches and second shortest and she jumps from springboard for her low bar kip and though its a bit high she seems to be able to glide kip fine (the rest of the routine for her is a work in progress). Congratulations to your daughter on overcoming that fear on beam, mental blocks stink!

 

[iwannacoach]

I generally wouldn't question what the coaches advise, but there are rumblings that this coach is NOT doing a good job on bars coaching, so I'm just curious what is missing. (The rumblings are coming from another coach.)

Here is her routine (actually, all her performances, but the bars is the link. Link removed by Bog.

I know her jump to high bar was sloppy, too. What else can you tell me about her performance?

Seems like you've gotten enough feedback on the deductions, and some perspective of what to expect at this level (coachmolly).

As far as one the "other" coach feeling the bar coach could be better....I watched all four events on the video, and think aside from the cast squat on being missed, her bar work is equal to or better than floor and vault...and pretty much equal to beam.

Oh! You won't believe this. I was just out in the lobby and you won't believe what I heard the pot is saying about the kettle's coaching ability on bars.