Parents moving up from level 4?

[purplesunflowers]

Hi All,

I'm fairly new to the gymnastics world. My daughter is 8 and competed for the first time last fall, level 4. She made it to state with over a 35 all around score. Since then, she has taught herself a kip and a cartwheel on the beam. Her coaches know that she can do these things. She hasn't mastered the double back handspring, but she also hasn't been working on those in class. Her coaches have told us that they want her backhandspring perfect before moving to the double backhandspring.

My question is that she has worked really hard to teach herself the kip and the cartwheel on the beam at open gym. We just got word that they want her in the level 4 group again in the fall. I think that if she DID compete level 4 in the fall, she would do really well. But I also don't want her bored and know that level 4 is really just a beginning level. Her sister, who is older and at a different gym (long story) didn't score as well at state in level 4, yet has been moved to the level 5/6 group and will compete at least level 5 in the fall.

I'm struggling with which is better for my daughter. Competing level 4 and doing really well, but being somewhat bored/frustrated in class because she's done it before and basically taught herself a kip and can't use it... OR moving her to another gym where she'll have to be in a class with older sister (they don't get along, but it could be managed) and having her compete level 5 but not do as well.

She'll be crushed if the other girls in her class who can't do a kip yet are moved up to level 5 and she's not. We won't know for awhile.

She likes her class and her gym, but I'm not sure if holding her back is the right decision. She would have moved to level 5 at the other gym....

Thoughts? I'm not sure what the best decision here is.
Thanks!

 

[gym law mom]

Ok, several questions. Why is she teaching herself the kip and cartwheel? Don't know when the L4 season ended, but those would be skills I would expect she would be working on at her usual practices. I can understand needing a very solid and technically correct bhs to move onto the bhs series. Have you spoken with the coach? I think you need to get more of an explanation of why they feel she would be better off doing L4 and ask if she could work L5 skills during the fall also.
Remember many L4 skills do not translate to L5 and the overall judging at L4 is more relaxed. I would push to get a more detailed answer from her coach before considering a move to a gym with older dd.

 

[Quadqueen]

I would also recommend trying to clarify with the coach exactly what the girls need before moving up. Are there other girls moving on to L5, and what skills do they have? Have they been working on L5 skills with any of the L4s? Has your daughter been introduced to any of these skills? I'm also curious about the fact that you said she taught herself...

My daughter does not have her kip yet...she is very close, but not having it did not prevent her from moving up to L5. At her gym, if they have scored 9s in all four events in L4, they are invited to move up in May. If they haven't, they may be able to prove themselves over the summer and be invited to move up then.

 

[lhmom]

I'm kinda curious too. After the state meet this past December, DD and her teammates started uptraining the level 5 skills even though DD and several of her teammates will repeat lv4. This summer, they are even adding a day so they can continue working on these skills. Do they not do that at your daughter's gym? I do know that DD's coaches are absolute sticklers on form. It is not enough for the girls to just do the skills in their opinion-they want it done as well (form wise) as possible. They are not in a hurry to rush girls through the levels, especially the younger ones. If I were you, I think I would have a chat with the head coach before making any decisions. See if they will be having the older ones working on harder skills this summer. Good luck!

 

[purplesunflowers]

My older DD is motivated to teach herself skills... she taught herself a kip on the bars on the playground at school and at open gym during the level 4 competition season when they weren't working on the skill. Younger daughter wanted to be like older daughter... so she learned it too. They did start working on the cartwheel on the beam, but younger daughter worked on it during open gym. She would remove a mat from under the beam until she could do it on the high beam.

 

[purplesunflowers]

The level 4 season ended in December. They started working on drills for the kip and some of the other skills, but not like my older daughter's gym. They seemed to be working on mostly level 4 skills at younger DD's gym. DD did learn her squat on and the cartwheel on the beam and they started working on the vault skills. They moved some of the older kids right away to level 5 and said that we'd have another chance in the spring... and obviously that hasn't panned out. She's not allowed to do her kip during practice and instead has to do the same drill that the rest of the kids do. This frustrates me because I don't want her to lose the skill.

 

[purplesunflowers]

It frustrates me because at older DD's gym I see kids who didn't score as well as she did who have their double BHS and are moving on to front tucks on the floor. I see drills for kips at older daughter's gym, but I also see that they are allowed to try to do the actual kip. My older daughter, since she already has hers, is allowed to work on other skills. I've also heard the "done right" thing. However, I know that a lot of the skills for level 4 don't translate to level 5. It doesn't seem like my younger daughter was given a chance to learn these skills for level 5 since they were still working on level 4 skills. I'm not sure who from this level 4 group moved to 5, if any. I won't know that until June as this particular gym doesn't want parents to talk about who moves up. They say that they look for the usual... attitude (DD is quiet, but has a good attitude), skill progression, flexibility (though one who moved to level 5 never did get her splits all the way down). I was given a detailed list of what could be fixed on her level 4 skills... but I wonder if some of them will EVER be perfect, and if that matters.

 

[Krystan]

I agree with others that maybe level 4 skills shouldn't have to be perfect before moving on. Also, why isn't she allowed to practice her kip at practice? My dd has been practicing a kip all through level 4. She just moved up to 5, although she doesn't quite have it yet. For level 5, they seem to be more moving people up based on strength, flexibility, and skills vs. scores on level 4 skills, many of which are not transferable. Dd is *so* excited to never do another mill circle! For me, I feel like it would be too difficult to have both girls at different gyms. I would think the convenience factor would be a major reason to move gyms as well. Are you worried about them competing with each other? I have a boy and girl, so this is much less of an issue.

 

[Muddlethru]

I understand your frustration purplesunflowers. I think it is important to keep the gymnast progressing. I also think scoring 35 at states shows proficiency in that level. The jump from L4 to L5 is not big. If you like the gym you are in, and you can approach the coaches, find out why they want your daughter to repeat L4. And then present them with your point of view.

My DD's gym did not make her repeat L4 as is standard at our gym. So I told my DD not to get disappointed if she does not win meets as a L5. My DD said she did not care. I think she just wanted to move on. Well, she had such a great year as a L5, much better than as a L4. So, purple, you never know. the jump from L4 to L5 is not big. Your DD might surprise you and do very well as a L5. Also, just because they put your DD with the L4 group, it may not necessarily mean she will be repeating L4. My DD stayed with her L4 group throughout the summer. And in September, the coaches told me she will be moving up to L5. My Dd was thrilled but she then had to catch up with the L5 who had been practicing L5 skills throughout the summer. I think you have a valid point, bring it up to the coaches.

 

[AlexsGymmyMom]

Definately a 35 during level 4 would show proficiancy in this level. I would be curious why there is next to no uptraining going on at her gym during the off season. On the other hand if she is teaching herself skills you run the risk of learning them incorrectly and then having to relearn them again anyway. There are a couple of girls at our gym that learned the kip wrong (at a different gym) and are still struggling to correct the bent in order to be able to cast out of them. I hope you can get some answers from the coaches!

 

[gym law mom]

Ok, I would not agree with a gym that does only some uptraining once the meet season is over. You said you had a detailed list with comments (I assume) of what the coach feels your dd needs to improve on. At this point, you have 3 choices, have her continue on at the present gym and do L4 again, talk to the coach and go over the list getting some clarity or switch gyms.
What does your dd think?

 

[UnoMas]

My daughters go to a gym that does not really uptrain and also requires near perfection before a gymnast moves up a level (the requirement is 36AA). While I don't love this, when I look at the options in our area for other gyms, for many reason, this gym continues to be the best choice for our family. So, we have no choice but to love with the lack of uptraining and high expectations to move on. My daughter will be repeating L5 next year mostly because of her difficulty with vault (she had 9's on beam and bars and close to 9's on floor all season). It doesn't make a lot of sense to me, but it is what it is and we have to keep on keeping on. She does have some L6 skills and I know she could get more if she would be allowed to uptrain even a little.
I will say this about the BHS. My older daughter has always struggled with this. She could always do it, but it was not pretty. In L4, she could do the BHS pretty decent by the end of the year. Not great. Her technique with the roundoff and body position always was a little off. Well, when she got to L5 and had to do 2 of them...she could DO it right away, but it was ugly and still continues to be ugly. Even one ROBHS is now ugly for her. Now, I wouldn't say this is typical because I don't see too many girls struggle like she has, but maybe the coach sees some stuff even with the 35AA scores that really need to be fixed?
Just another way to look at it...not that I necessarily agree with it...but maybe another way to think about it.

 

[vagymmomma]

Coaches are human -- sometimes their decisions on level moves are right and sometimes they can be questioned. But I think at a certain point in time you need to rely on their expertise/experience (or change gyms). The kip is huge. We had a number of girls two years ago who had significant struggles qualifying for state at both level 5 and 6. Bars was the big reason. Sometimes the kip or flyaway just didn't come and some of the girls quit in frustration. Because of that experience DD's gym enforces a pretty strict 36 AA and kip requirement to move up. They'll make limited exceptions (for older gymnasts, et al), but I can tell you that at end of the season at least 95% of the girls and families held back at L4 and L5 would say it was the best decision. They had a great 2nd year and (this is very important) were able to uptrain to get the necessary skills to do well at the next level.

 

[Gymnasticgrandkids]

If you are at a good gym and at the meets the scores reflect that knowledge then you have to trust that they know what they are doing. There are gymnasts that stand to be great contenders if held back and made perfect..and the ones that don't seem as good that got moved up, maybe that was because the coaches could not see their great potential and so figured move them up, they'll be gone in a year or so anyway, and never would have been that good. Look at the fact that they want another year to perfect her as a good thing.

 

[MamaofEnS]

This is an interesting thread. I can share with you my experience. My DD also taught herself the kip during open gym before she was level 4. During her time as a level 4, she would practice her kip, but once they started working on routines (around spring), then they stopped practicing the kip. She also had a double bhs and cartwheel on the beam, but wasn't entirely consistent. I don't remember what her score at state was, but I do remember she placed 10th AA. The gym decided to have her repeat level 4. A lot of parents were wondering why she had to repeat, but I was okay with it. Yes, she did lose her kip a few times, but always got it back. Her second year as a level 4 she got first on floor and bars, and second on beam and AA at state, with a score of 37+. She went on to have very good L5 and L6 seasons the following years, but never as good as that second year level 4. One change that helped avoid boredom with staying at L4 was that she had a new coach.

I hope that helps.

 

[2gymmies]

My experience is that a 35 all around at Level 4 would repeat unless extenuating circumstances exist. My older dd scored 36 AA twice as a 7 year old Level 4 and still repeated because she was scoring high in three events but hadn't broken a 9 in one event. She scored high 37 and even 38 AA her 8 year old Level 4 year and then went Level 5, scored out of 6 and went to 7. I often wonder where she would be right now if she would have moved to 5 instead of repeating 4. She was definitely bored that year at the time, but I think it gave her tremendous confidence which has served her well as she moved up through the levels. Most small, young level 5s don't have trouble with bars, beam or floor - its the vault that is challenging!

Good coaches want proper technique and good strength and flexibility moving forward so they like that extra year at 4 or 5 - it seems like girls repeat one or the other. Maybe talk to your dd's coaches and find out what their plan is for her - maybe she can repeat and then move more quickly to 5/6/7, etc.

Hang in there,

Jules

 

[Aussie_coach]

There can be a lot more to it than just scoring well at competitions and being able to do the skills.

Gymnastics competitions are judged in a particular way. You may be looking at her kip and cartwheel on bars and be seeing that she can do them, but it may be a long way off scoring decently with them in a competition. Level 4-5 is a big step in many ways.

I doubt they will move the rest of her team up if they can't do these skills and not move your DD, probably the aim is to keep them all at level 4.

Repeating level 4 should not bore here. Here in Australia competing level 4 is very common and the kids don't get bored. The first time around is really about perfecting the level 4 work. But the second time around a lot less time needs to be spent on learning and repeating the routines and a lot more time can be spent on uptraining and learning new and exciting skills. In many ways the kids who repeat level 4 often progress much faster and further than the ones who move to level 5 and have all new routines to spend their training time learning and mastering.

 

[GymGirl's Mom]

When does you season start- in the late Fall/early winter? I'd think if she has those skills- especially the kip the ROBHS-BHS will come in the time she has left before the season starts. I do know some regions compete on a different schedule- when is her first competition?

I think it's silly (IMO) to hold a kid back a level- a developmental level that needs no "moving up" score if she has a kip. How would she feel about switching gyms? I guess it all depends on if you think she would be bored doing Level 4 again- I know my DD would- it's one thing to not have the skills- another thing to be getting the skills and not be allowed to move up.

let us know what you and her decide.

 

[NGL780309]

Before my DD starting competing I looked at repeating levels as not a good thing. Her old gym didn't do it. They moved up girls who scored only 29's and 30's in L4. When we moved to a gym that does a lot of repeating and I saw how much fun the girls had actually doing well at meets rather than never placing, I like it now. My DD will be "repeating" L4 and I'm thrilled about it. I put repeating in quotations because she's not really repeating. Our season is in the fall and she wasn't 6 last fall so couldn't compete. She did compete 3 invitationals in the spring so technically she has competed some as a L4. She scored in the high 36 low 37 range at her first 3 meets. I'm so looking forward to her first Level 4 season because I know she will do well. Meanwhile she has all her Level 5 skills except vault and she works out with the Level 5 team. Originally I was disappointed that she can't compete L5 because she won't be old enough, but now I'm happy. The Level 4 team are all repeats except for 3 and they are all looking forward to getting to shine in L4 and they are working a lot of L5 skills.

DD's gym wants the girls to have scored 36 in Level 4 before moving up, but that's not set in stone. Some of the girls who did 2 years of Level 4 and weren't consistently scoring 36's moved up because they had their L5 skills. The 2nd year Level 4's spend a large amount of time practicing L5 skills, so while they compete L4, they are getting ready for L5.

 

[gymnut1]

NGL that strikes me as a very sensible balance. I'd say you had a good system at your gym.