MAG Skills questions for L4-5: p-bars handstand & ROBHS

[sce]

I see too many kids moving up levels in boys gymnastics before they are at levels of mastery. This leads to lower scores, more failures (at meets and practice), injuries, frustrations for coaches, gymnasts and parents and the kids find other sports/challenges were they can succeed. We need to back-up and let the kids enjoy success after success - and NOT be pressured to graduate to levels prematurely.

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I disagree to some of this. First, your vault scores are wrong, as there is no bonus, so your 90% max scores are also incorrect. Second, each boy is an individual, with different strengths and weaknesses. Doing what you propose will leave some boys in lower levels a long time, make them bored and they will quit. My ds did not master every level 5 bonus. Bu,t he is moving on to level 6. Keeping him at level 5 would kill his love of the sport. Many boys thrive on the challenge of the newer, harder skills. How well will my ds do this year? Who knows, but he would rather try the harder level then be perfect at level 5.

All that to say, I still feel a 6yo should not push up a level unless he is capable of doing the skills of the next level well. Otherwise staying at level 4, mastering the bonuses and having a great competition season would be far better.

 

[profmom]

Really depends on the kid. Mine stayed back at 5 last year. I'm still not sure it was the right call, though he is very easygoing and will pretty much work whatever a coach tells him to work. He had a teammate who would have quit if he'd been held back for another year, even though he was still having some trouble on some events. The max score on all events but vault is a 12.2 at L5 and L6, so we're talking about 11s for mastery and a 9.75 would be the 80% level. That's a high standard. Around here, that's likely to mean three, not two, years at L5 for most guys.

I'm torn because on the one hand I can see that my little dude benefited by taking the extra year to work hard on perfecting his form. But if he were different personality wise, I don't think he would have had as successful or satisfying a year as a repeat L5. We still don't know how this will work long-term -- in a year or so we may be able to see if the extra year will make it harder for him to catch up with the guys who stayed on track in the age-based system. By the end of his first year at L5, he had something like eight of the bonuses, and at states and regionals last year, he had 13 of the 15. Can we say he mastered L5 if he never did get all the bonuses? Or is it maybe a better to add in what they can do at the level to which they aspire?

I'm no coach, but I think that if a boy can't do all or almost all of the base routines with a point or less of execution errors, it might make sense to wait before moving up unless holding back is likely to lead to frustration severe enough to threaten future participation. Ideally they can do solid base routines but also have some bonuses.

 

[sce]

Really depends on the kid. Mine stayed back at 5 last year. I'm still not sure it was the right call, though he is very easygoing and will pretty much work whatever a coach tells him to work. He had a teammate who would have quit if he'd been held back for another year, even though he was still having some trouble on some events. The max score on all events but vault is a 12.2 at L5 and L6, so we're talking about 11s for mastery and a 9.75 would be the 80% level. That's a high standard. Around here, that's likely to mean three, not two, years at L5 for most guys.

I'm no coach, but I think that if a boy can't do all or almost all of the base routines with a point or less of execution errors, it might make sense to wait before moving up unless holding back is likely to lead to frustration severe enough to threaten future participation. Ideally they can do solid base routines but also have some bonuses.

I agree it's a really high standard. In fact, by the 90% logic, in my state 7 boys out of 130 would be ready to move up form level 5 to level 6.

 

[sbonham]

Grace,
I agree - I think that our USAG system needs some substantial tweaking... and I think that is happening...

In Germany, the Netherlands, the UK, Japan, and China the gymnastics community (coaches, gymnasts, judges, parents) is/are much more patient. Much more emphasis is placed on mastering basic swing - as opposed to keeping the "customer" happy with games, and the introduction of "new AND ***HARDER*** tricks" constantly.

Check out this Chinese 9-11 year old's swing P-bars:


The routine is comparable to our level 5 compulsory:
From a hang cast to a backward swing in hang, forward swing,
backward swing in hang, forward swing,
backward swing in hang, forward swing,
backward swing to glide kip to L (or V)... etc.

Compare this to what you see being done by our L5s...

This type of performance comes from programs that emphasize repetitive basic work, excellent mechanics and strict attention to detail. Check out this workout at a China age group gym: http://www.gymnastike.org/coverage/.../video/471583-Seeking-Perfection#.VDg0POdN1Cc

It doesn't look like a lot of fun (tho I was happy to see some playful behavior occurring off the apparatus permitted). I think that we can better reshape our programs to provide higher quality training to the guys in the "feeder" (age group compulsory) program. Doing well (REALLY WELL) there will lead to higher levels of gymnastics participation and eventually greater success at the higher levels.

 

[sce]

Curlymop - getting back to your ds. Have you talked with the coach more about the plan for him ie level 4 vs level 5?

 

[sbonham]

First, your vault scores are wrong, as there is no bonus, so your 90% max scores are also incorrect. Second, each boy is an individual, with different strengths and weaknesses. Doing what you propose will leave ...

Sce,
You are correct on the vault scores and so the AAs too. My error... and perhaps my level (90%) of mastery is high but this is a fairly standard percentage in other sports/skilled performance areas.
As I said - there would of course be exceptions...

 

[curlymop]

Curlymop - getting back to your ds. Have you talked with the coach more about the plan for him ie level 4 vs level 5?

I did. He understands my concerns, I think. He said we have a couple of weeks to decide and he wants to talk to my son about it to see how he feels about competing L4 again. So... we'll see.

 

[skschlag]

I am glad to hear that he was receptive to your concerns. With you on his side, I am sure your ds will be ok with whatever the decision is!!

 

[profmom]

So glad the coach is going to talk to your son, Curlymop!

Your analysis is really interesting, Steve. My son's former coach held a bunch of pretty good guys back at L5 last year and spent ENDLESS time working on swing mechanics. I guess we will see in the coming years how this ends up paying off. I can say that my son seems to have had less trouble getting the L6 skills on the swinging events.

 

[sbonham]

Mornin Profmom,

The majority of the skills performed in L4-6 are the "foundation" for everything that follows. USA Gymnastics has done a nice job of constructing these exercises to build upon one another. If these building blocks are not mastered - every layer of brick, every brick - column and floor that are added atop are going to place additional load on that foundation. At some point (where-ever the foundation is weakest) "cracks" will appear. This usually manifests itself first as a learning plateau. A skill that a guy just can't get past. Gerry George, author of Winning Gymnastics, describes what he calls compensations arising at this point. For instance they can't yet do a skill (say a free hipcircle on highbar or a peach basket on p-bars) with straight arms they may begin to arch the back more as they pull, which allows them to get the arms straight - as they attain and then straighten out into a handstand. The cause of the problem might well have been several other performance errors (tension (shoulder girdle elevation) too early in the shoulders is very common in both of these skills) but this fix works - for awhile - until they want to turn on the way up (a blind change action)- and the arch will severely limit the turn on the long axis. So they hit yet another wall... that still has it origin in the proper descent shape of the shoulder girdle (DEPRESSION) into the hipcircle. They either must correct the original error or find another "work-around." By this time the first work-around (arching during the pull) is ingrained and... progress in this lane ends.

It's much better to stay TOO LONG in a level than to move too early. If there is a question - a doubt - stay.

 

[skschlag]

this does make me feel better about D's 3 years in level 5!

 

[krc]

One of the main goals of the Compulsory program is to slow down new skill development and to concentrate on the complete development of "core" skills. As Steve noted above, not to learn something 1/2 way and then move on. Look at the FS and the JE tech sequences. These programs are designed to make coaches and gymnasts constantly refine and perfect basic movements. And keep in mind that at the upper levels the "do it till it's perfect" mentality has to apply to all skills, not just the basics.

So, as long as the kids are working and challenged, taking an extra year at a lower level is not that big of a deal, and may actually be more helpful in the long run. Patience is a also necessary skill that has to be refined and practiced.

 

[curlymop]

I am glad to hear that he was receptive to your concerns. With you on his side, I am sure your ds will be ok with whatever the decision is!!

Thank you... I needed that.

While the head coach seemed receptive to discussing it further, brand new assistant coach basically shot me down when I mentioned it to him after class. He said DS should definitely be competing L5 and was too advanced for L4. When I mentioned DS's age and the frustration that might come from another season of chasing the skills, he said something to the effect of DS needing to experience some disappointment in order to push himself. Grrr... I like this guy in general, and I think he coaches well, but he has only been at our gym for a couple of months. He didn't experience last season with DS, or he would know that my kid had plenty of experience with disappointment. I just want him to compete with his own age group, and I don't think that qualifies as coddling him.

THEN, I casually asked DS on the way home if HC had asked him his opinion on which level to compete. He said no. He got kind of upset with me for even suggesting it and said that if he repeated L4 then all of the work he's done learning the L5 skills and routines would be wasted. Of course it wouldn't actually be wasted, but it's tough to explain that to a first grader. The last thing I want to do is signal to DS that I think he's not good enough, and it seems like I've already done that.

 

[Deleted member 10727]

Grace,
I agree - I think that our USAG system needs some substantial tweaking... and I think that is happening...

In Germany, the Netherlands, the UK, Japan, and China the gymnastics community (coaches, gymnasts, judges, parents) is/are much more patient. Much more emphasis is placed on mastering basic swing - as opposed to keeping the "customer" happy with games, and the introduction of "new AND ***HARDER*** tricks" constantly.

Check out this Chinese 9-11 year old's swing P-bars:


The routine is comparable to our level 5 compulsory:
From a hang cast to a backward swing in hang, forward swing,
backward swing in hang, forward swing,
backward swing in hang, forward swing,
backward swing to glide kip to L (or V)... etc.

Compare this to what you see being done by our L5s...

This type of performance comes from programs that emphasize repetitive basic work, excellent mechanics and strict attention to detail. Check out this workout at a China age group gym: http://www.gymnastike.org/coverage/.../video/471583-Seeking-Perfection#.VDg0POdN1Cc

It doesn't look like a lot of fun (tho I was happy to see some playful behavior occurring off the apparatus permitted). I think that we can better reshape our programs to provide higher quality training to the guys in the "feeder" (age group compulsory) program. Doing well (REALLY WELL) there will lead to higher levels of gymnastics participation and eventually greater success at the higher levels.

My son would enjoy this coaching and I think he is weird. He want's to perfect skills, and he enjoyed watching the China age group program immensely. He is learning the Pbar kip and he hasn't been able to understand what the coaches want from him, and the video you posted explained it to him perfectly. Thanks!

 

[Deleted member 10727]

My son is at the young end of his level, too. He is a level 6 this year and I cannot imagine holding him back to level 5. He did meet AA mastery according to the above chart, but not if you go by event. I think he will be repeating a level and it will be good for him!

 

[sbonham]

He is learning the P-bar kip and he hasn't been able to understand what the coaches want from him, and the video you posted explained it to him perfectly. Thanks!

Very glad to hear that... BUT want to make sure I understand - You mentioned the P-bar kip - and "the video I posted"... ? the glide kip on P-bars video? I am scratching my head (LOL)... because I have made one of those (don't know if I have shared it here however) and uploaded it to YouTube... or the training video from China?

The Glide Kip on P-bars video is at:

 

[Deleted member 10727]

No, the China Video, expecting perfection, I believe it was called. And yeah, the glide kip. That video is interesting too!!