Parents Heartbroken for 8 yo DD...

[momofthreegirls]

My 8 yo DD competed L4 last year, and steadily improved throughout the season, and ended the year scoring high 35s. Meanwhile, her little sister, age 5, was on pre-team. It looked to me that big DD was on the path to compete L5, and that littler DD would repeat pre-team.

Fast-forward through summer... Older DD trained L5 and got all her skills except the kip. She is close, but just can't get up on the bar at the end of the skill. Younger DD trained L4 and had a skill explosion, getting almost all of her L4 skills.

Well, I just found out today that they are letting my little one compete L4 (she turns 6 right before the first meet) and that they want to hold older DD back at L4 because of the kip.

When I told my older DD, she burst into tears and cried all afternoon. Double whammy for her, because all her best friends on the team are moving up without her, and she feels embarrassed to be a third-grade L4 with her kindergarten sister.

I wish I could somehow help DD get that kip, but she only has until this coming Wednesday. In all honesty, I don't think it will come.

Sadly, they do not up-train during the school year, so older DD won't get to work the kip again until next June. Or practice squat-ons, back extensions, beam cartwheels, vaults over the table, etc. DD has worked so hard to get those skills, and I hope she doesn't lose them during her repeat of L4. There may be one or two other girls that repeat L4 - but not enough to have a separate training group from the "new" L4s so they can uptrain for L5.

I wish DD could continue to train L5 and just not compete until the kip comes, or simply scratch bars. I asked about these options for her, but they are not allowed. So she will have to repeat L4 or move to a rec. class. I don't want to hold back my younger one to make the older one happy. Little DD has worked so, so hard this summer, and is really excited to compete.

The crazy-gym-mom inside me wants to find a way to get DD some private coaching time on the kip. From what DD tells me, and what I've seen from the observation area, they don't really do drills or get guidance on the kip. They just try and try until they get it. Lately, as most of the team has achieved it (lots are "muscle-up" kips, only a few have good ones) they get 10 minutes to make 10 kips. If they fail, they get 50 pushups and ten rope climbs. They just keep telling my DD to "shift and lean" and she'll have it, but it's not helping.

My DD goes to gym MWF, but 3/4 of the L5 girls go MTWTHF. The 5-day practice option was not offered to all the girls. At first I was hurt that my DD was not given the opportunity, but then I came to my senses and realized that 25 hours a week was too much for her and might burn her out. Now I wonder if they did extra bar work or drills and skills on T/TH, since those girls are the ones that are progressing faster.

Thanks for listening if you made it this far... Just feeling really bummed and needed to vent to people who might understand...

 

[gymgal]

This is a tough one. From a parent's perspective, it would be SO much easier since the girls would likely be in the same session for each meet (smaller meets anyway). But I understand where your older dd is coming from too. It can't hurt to try a few privates, but it doesn't sound like she has more than a couple days to fit them in. If the other girls are just powering up the kip, and the coaches are accepting this for move up, it's possible with a could privates that dd would get that. It's pretty weird the way you explain how they are "teaching" the kip. But since I'm only a parent, I will let a coach step in for that one...

 

[MaryA]

Ugh. How heart-breaking for you and for her! This is one of those times when you really just need a magic wand, isn't it? A few things...

1. DD came from a "do it again" gym. In hind-sight, she looks back and says, "We were never really taught HOW to do something. We just did it again and again till we got it." This method (in my opinion) was a breeding ground for bad form and bad habits. Now that she goes to a gym with drills and progressions and such, it really does make a world of difference.

2. DD's past gym also did no uptraining. I can't tell you how much it thrilled me, after we switched, to see DD working on what will some day be a level 8 vault while she was still training 6.

3. It is ridiculous to set a goal for a girl who doesn't yet have her kip to do 10 in 10 minutes. She is set up to fail from the start.

4. Make sure she knows that a 3rd grade level 4 is not "behind" in any way. I know that last year at our State competition, the 5th grade level 6's was the biggest age group. Also, make sure she knows that she will ROCK level 4 this year.

5. If your daughter wants a private lesson on kips and you can afford it, why not? Maybe it will give her a bit of confidence and she'll get it.

I would tell you to ask if your daughter could train with the 5's at least part of the time, but it doesn't sound like they're very flexible. Yes, it would make me crazy to think that my daughter, who spent all summer learning most of the level 5 skills was not going to touch them again till next spring.

I hate to bring up a gym switch, because of course if you leave you'll sound like "you didn't move my daughter up so I'm out of here." But it sounds to me like there are more things at this gym that you're not happy about than just the fact that your daughter isn't getting moved up to level 5. A different gym may well put her at level 4 too, but they may also continue to work with her on the level 5 skills she already has so that she isn't back to "square one." They may allow her to move up mid-season, and they may present skills in a more systematic way.

It has taken me so long to type this that I'm sure others have weighed in with more useful advice, so I'll just leave you with a big chalk-bucket hug... :grouphug:

 

[wallinbl]

Having a kindergartner in level 4 is pretty impressive! Kudos to the little one for that. Being a 3rd grade level 4 is nothing to sneeze at either, that's pretty normal around here. Don't really have any advice, just wanted to say that it sounds like they're both doing well, even though the current situation isn't the way you want it.

 

[Danica76]

I have a little more background on this situation due to our little group and just want you to know that my heart aches for B., too . That is really, really, tough. I am also excited for your little one, but can completely understand why older DD is so upset. I also truly feel for you as a Mom - it's got to be so difficult to balance the emotions of both girls, which are at opposite ends of the spectrum. You deserve a massage, mani/pedi or a glass of wine, at the very least

My biggest concern is that B. does not lose her passion for gym or get discouraged. I have seen her in action and she is a talented kid. You know that my kiddo is repeating L4 this season, but we knew that last season and going into the summer, so the pressure was really off and she has just been enjoying uptraining with no real expectation of moving up. She will get to keep working L5 skills through the year, but not as intensely. It'll be more of a "for every good L4 bar routine you do, you get to work 5 kips" type of thing. I think it really stinks that they will not work any L5 skills at all through the season. And yes, she'll be a bang up L4 this year, but wouldn't it be nice if she went into next summer with ALL her L5 skills because she got to uptrain? That's just my thought. I am sorry that they will not work with you on the options you mentioned.

I know that a gym switch is probably not possible for you, knowing that there is really only one other game in town and I'm not sure that's something you're interested in. I hope that you can find a way to make sense of this whole situation and that your oldest DD holds her head high and keeps on moving forward. Gymgal is right - it will be easier as far as meets go, for you, logistically. And I will be happy to see you if we attend some of the same meets again!

Hang in there!!! Sending a big hug your way, too!

 

[gymmomntc2e6]

I'm sorry you are going through this. It's hard with siblings really. Not just in gymnastics, seems they are always competing no matter what.

When DD was in gym there were several sets of siblings & I saw first hand tje frustration the older ones would have when the hounger caught up or surpassed the older. Sadly, many times the older eventually quit.

We tried to enforce tje strenghts each had. Where one may have been better on beam the other on floor. Lots of damage control on breaking the older of comparing herself to her sister but to herself & her own progress.

It stinks that she won't get to work L5 skills during the season. DD's gym always uptrained. Not every practice but every week.

 

[gymmutti]

I also want to give both you and your oldest daughter a big hug. The kip is one of those first tough skills and it is a shame that the coaches don't work toward it with the L4s since it can take so long to get the hang of it. Is there an open gym or somewhere that your older dd can go to continue working the L5 skills she's worked so hard to get (and to continue to work on the kip)? Your younger DD really should feel great that she made it on the team! It is so hard to handle the highs and lows of our children and doubly hard to handle them at the same time.

 

[Aussie_coach]

That is ridiculous. It makes no sense to have a child train all her level 5 skills over the summer and then not get one skill (I know Kip is a big one) and then have her not do them again for 9 months. That makes no sense and is not good gymnastics practice.

I would have a meeting with the gym and ask if she can train 1 day a week with the level 5's so she can maintain her level 5 skills while she competes level 4. If she doesn't work on them again until summer then she will lose them. This is also probably why she does not have kips. Our kids also need kip for level 5. Our level 4's work kips every day they train so by level 5 they are solid.

 

[BlairBob]

Your situation makes red flags pop up in my head.

1. No uptraining. BS

2. Sounds like a horrible way to encourage a kip.

3. Makes me wonder if there Strength&Conditioning programming is just as craptastic.

4. A lot of struggle-up/muscle-up kips. Sorry, kip front hip or kip cast or go home.

5. Look into privates possibly. What are her strength levels? How many pullups? How high can she climb the rope without her legs? How long can she hold an L hang or a V-hang. How many leg lifts from a hang to the bar can she do? How many pushups, all the way down with a hollow body can she do or dips? Does she have a good hollow hold?

6. Do you have video of her kip attempts?

 

[Pineapple_Lump]

Another coach weighing in, I see the same red flags as the other coaches.

 

[momofthreegirls]

Thanks for your kind replies, everyone.

Gymgal - You're right - for me, it will be easier having two level 4s: less hotel stays, and less time sitting in the bleachers. For DDs it will be tough, though. I forsee big DD getting medals and trophies, and littler DD coming home empty-handed. As far as privates, I don't even know if they are offered at our gym. I almost would rather go elsewhere so DD can get a fresh perspective on the kip. Maybe she needs a different approach.

MaryA - Thanks for your understanding words. Sounds like your old gym has a lot in common with my DD's current one. I'm glad you were able to find a good gym for your DD. Our city has two gyms, and we've been to both. I really prefer our current gym in most every way. Oh, BTW, is your avatar from the pink meet? It was our big "travel meet" last year, and it was such a fun time.

Wallinbl - From what I saw last year, 8-9 year olds were always the largest age group around here, so it's not uncommon here either. It's just uncommon at our gym... the HC picks really young girls for team. Usually the average age is 7. Our "old lady" on the team last year was 9.

Maryn'smom - Thanks again for always being so supportive and kind. Your gym has it right, letting kids and parents know ahead of time where they will be the following year. DD was called a 5 all summer, and now feels like she's been demoted. A gym switch is out of the question for us. Too bad my DH didn't get the teaching job he applied for - it was near your gym. I bet my DD would thrive at your gym, since it's smaller. B tends to let other girls push her around and cut in front of her in line. Her training group has over 20 girls. Lots of time spent in line. We will definitely have to plan to meet up again at a meet once we get our schedules! Our girls need to get acquainted, too.

gymmomntc2e6 - Our team has some siblings, too, but I have yet to see any of the younger surpass the older. My DDs are competitive for sure. I can see my little one surpassing the bigger one due to personality attributes, not necessarily talent. I fear for that day and the fallout...

gymmutti - Thanks for your understanding! No open gym at our gym. Another gym in town has open gym time, but it's our rival gym, and our city is not that big...

Aussiecoach - You are right -the lack of uptraining makes no sense. That's what bothers me the most. DD worked hard for her new skills, and even overcame some fear issues to get certain skills. Now for them to be left untouched for 9 months is frustrating.

BlairBob - I'll try to comment on each of your points.
1. I agree wholeheartedly. Most of the reason for no uptraining is that Sept-May is spent on routines and learning/perfecting current level skills. We have 20 new level 4s right now, and lots of missing skills to gain before meet season. When my DD moves back down to the L4 group in two weeks, she will spend her time working FHS, shoot-thru, mill circle, ROBHS, etc. Even though she has those skills mastered, many on the team are learning them for the first time. (Including my 5.5 year old.) They do not individualize during practice. With so many girls, the entire group does the same skills/drills. Most sad for DD will be vault - her L5 vault is much better than her L4 one for some reason.

2. Yes, like someone else mentioned, it sets DD up for failure from the beginning. Threatening with punishment is not going to make her suddenly attain the kip. She is one of those kids who has to work for her skills - things haven't always come easily or naturally for her.

3. Actually they do tons of conditionings - 2.5 hours of each 5 hour practice is conditioning. Running, stretching, splits, press handstands, v-ups, situps, hollow/arch holds, rope climbs, leg lifts, pull-ups, chin holds, tuck and L holds, sets of pullovers on high bar, toe raises on beam, push-ups. Those are what they do each practice. Sometimes they add a few different things to mix it up.

4. I agree.

5. DD is really strong. 20 pullups. She can climb 3/4 of the way up the rope with no legs at all. All the way up without feet (scissoring?). They do 10 scissor climbs each practice and make a few attempts with no legs at all. They have to do 60 second L holds. DD usually drops once during the minute. That is her least favorite thing during conditioning. Leg lifts seem easy for her - don't know an exact number. She holds the gym record for holding her chin over the bar. Can do that for almost 3 minutes. Can do lots of pushups, and has a good hollow hold. She's not a big girl (50 inches tall, 50 pounds), trim but muscular. I think her kip problem is a timing issue, not a strength issue.

 

[sglemon]

First, I don't understand why you can't get privates to help her? At our gym, all of the coaches are available and they charge $60/hr.

Like the others posted above, there are all kinds of red flags.

But I wanted to post as a mom, who had a very similar experience. My girls are 2 years apart, but just one year apart in gymnastics. Our gym does require the girls to repeat level 4, regardless the scores. So 2 years ago, I had 2 girls competing Level 4. Luckily they never competed against each other, but they would compete in the same session. My older dd, 2nd year level 4 had a difficult time with gymnastics. Although she had all the skills, her form was not good, as a result, she never scored higher than a 35.9. Little sister comes into the sport, who is a gorgeous ballet dancer and gorgeous form, starts out level 4 scoring in the low 37s. It was TOUGH! My older one cried, screamed, etc.. She had a difficult time seeing her little sister excell in "her" sport. Then sometime in the middle of the season she found peace with it, and came to the conclusion for herself that maybe the sport wasn't for her. So she started in a travel soccer program and found her own success and confidence. In hindsight, I think it was a difficult road for her to take, but it helped her grow as a person on many levels. She can now be happy for her sister and her successes in the sport. It is not easy having 2 girls competing in the same sport/same level, especially with the younger one doing better than the older. But sometimes that is the road they need to travel to grow as a person.

 

[bogwoppit]

If she were my kid, and she was in that gym situation, I would ask to have her train L5 and compete the apparatus she can. That kip will only come with good conditioning, consistent coaching and constant practice with good form.

The L4 group is big and I imagine the reason why there is no uptraining is not having enough coaches for that number of girls. Basically the girls stand in line, as opposed to working at stations on skill parts. It drives me nuts to see that when a great coach has a plan to keep the girls moving and learning.

As to the whole level thing, that is less of a big deal to me. My girls went to a smaller gym. They are three years apart and in their training group there were three sets of sisters. They competed the same level, never the same age, a few times. No big deal, it really is how you sell it to them.

 

[lhmom]

I just wanted to add my support for you. I just have my one daughter in the sport, but I can imagine what it would be like when you have 2. I hope that she can make peace with it once the season starts! I'd be concerned about the lack of uptraining too. As others have mentioned, how is she ever going to get it when they won't work on it with her? That doesn't seem right to me. DD and her group did another year of level 4 (the usual at her gym) but also continued to work on drills towards the kip last season-made it easier once the season ended to get it. I know that you're limited right now in choices for gyms so I hope that you all can find a way to help keep her confidence up, especially after she's been thinking she is a level 5.

 

[Amber]

I feel your pain...we too, are in the same boat...youngest DD (7) competed level 3 last year, while her older sister (10), has done advanced rec for a few years. After seeing youngest DD have so much fun, she decided to try out for team, expecting to go on at least level 4. She was placed on Excel Bronze (correctly, I might add). She was extremely upset, as a few of her classmates are on both level 4 and 5. We now know that the youngest will probably wind up competing level 5 by the end of the season. So she will be "ahead" of her older sister...I wish I had some advice, but it really depends on your oldest DD's temperament. My oldest DD has committed to being on Excel, but I am dreading competition season. If younger DD scores higher, are we in for a lot of tears? Time will tell....
I do know that girls that repeat levels tend to score pretty high at competitions, so maybe that will be rewarding for her . Good luck!!

 

[LizzieLac]

Ok, couple of things, and I hope not to irritate anyone.

First, getting the kip does not a level 5 bar routine make. She will also have to get a squat on, jump to high bar and kip again. My DD has been there! She worked out extra without her team to get her kip. Not a private - just her working on it. It took time. From what I have seen, there are two types of gymmies - get it quickly and take a long time. It is what it is. However, there are lots of drills, tips about form that she should be told, and even some spotting that can help.

Second, some gyms do not like to scratch an event that a gymnast is struggling on. It is their approach to coaching and has its merits. But I would say that even if she were held back at level 4, she should be working her level 5 skills at least 50% of the time. Doing that will prepare her and I think even help her level 4 repeat be a strong year.

Third, not sure if you said when your first meet is, but perhaps she can keep training level 5 - especially bars - and be ready for the first meet. If you have say 6-8 weeks until your first meet that is plenty of time to get bars figured out well enough to compete it. We had a girl, who was a bery strong level 4, had all other level 5 skills, but could not kip. She kept working at it right up until ou first meet last year and got it in time. For the first part of the season, bars was a not her best event. BUT - by the end of the year she was quite strong. So, sometimes, some things just take longer than others.

I can't really comment about having 2 kids in the same sport, but my DD swam competitively for a while and her friends, two sisters only 18 months apart, experienced it. Sometimes one was better at one event and then they would switch. I know that can be tough, but it is very similar to competing right alongside some close friends who have been in the gym with you for years. It can be emotional, but it is also part of the process that makes them mentally tough and able to handle the pressure.

I guess my advice would be to ask if she can move forward on the level 5 path, with the understanding that she needs to get the bars figured out in time for the first meet. And, as the season goes on she should still work on those level 5 skills even if she ends up having to compete level 4. If that happens, maybe she can attend one level 5 practice per week, as I agree, having her workout with level 4s that are not where she is on the other events can potentially hold her development back.

Good luck with everything!!

 

[kayjaybe]

I totally get where you are coming from in all areas. Both my dds did gymnastics from very little. It was quickly apparent that my older one "had it" and the younger one didn't. She was always wondering when she would get invited to move to L2. She eventually realized that the sport wasn't for her. Of course, it was easier because she was the younger one.

I'm also concerned about your gym's approach to no uptraining. Our L4s didn't compete. All we did was work toward L5 skills. The girls were invited to train L5 in May and even if they didn't have all their skills, they still went and competed in the meets. A couple of girls didn't have their kip until the 2nd or 3rd meet. They simply didn't compete that event.

To move to L6, all the last year L5s are training the skills and they'll give them all the way up to the first meet to have them before they say whether or not they can compete that level. I love that they get so much chance to be successful.

I guess I'm also wondering about your practices. 5 hour practices for a L4? How many times/week? I can't imagine that the girls can be successful on the apparatus if they are conditioning for 2.5 hours. They must be TIRED! Perhaps that is part of what is holding back the advance of skills.

 

[momofthreegirls]

sglmom - Thanks for sharing your story. I think this may happen eventually with my girls. I'm glad to hear that your older DD found a sport that makes her happy.

Bog - I asked about scratching bars or simply not competing for the first part of the season, and was turned down. Level 4 or nothing...

Amber - Good luck to you and your girls this season! I hope they both do well, and are able to be encouraging and cheer each other on.

LizzieLac - DD really is just missing the kip. She has a lovely FHC connected to squat-on jump to high bar. Her tap swings and dismount are good as well. I wish she could train L5 until the first meet (mid-November) but that isn't an option at our gym. I don't think the coaches like kids hopping from group to group, and they really start learning/fine-tuning routines in Sept. Don't think they want to "waste" their time teaching L5 routines to my DD when they have other kids to worry about who will compete for sure. L4 and L5 practice the same days and hours, so it could be a possibility to have her work with 5s some, but I really don't think they will go to the trouble of making any special arrangements for my DD. We have a small gym, and a huge team and big rec program. The gym is usually packed to the max, and it's a madhouse in there most days.

 

[mariposa]

That is a tough situation. You would think the gym would have thought about how hard that would be for your older daughter, but really, both kids should be treated separately. You wouldn't move up a girl just because her friend moved up. And honestly, I wouldn't want my daughter to compete level 5 without a solid kip. Level 5 is tough enough when you have both kips, but without them, I have seen it and it is not pretty. Connecting the kips to the other skills take time, too.

That said, no uptraining during a repeat year is really no fun. My daughter did 2 years of both level 4 and 5, but she is at a gym that uptrains year round, even the week of a meet they sometimes uptrain, so that made it easy, because she got the confidence of competing at a level she was proficient at, but still being challenged with new skills. And if they really don't do progressions, etc, then getting a kip will definitely be harder. If she is truly ready on all skills except the kip and they don't compete till November, then I don't see why they won't let her train for level 5 until then. If meets started in September, then I could see having her repeat level 4 (IF she could still uptrain), but November is still a long time away.

I have seen many siblings where the younger one gets skills faster, moves through the levels faster, etc, it is really common. I think how it is dealt with by the coaches and parents is what is most important and have seen kids still thrive as long as there were no comparisons made. I have also seen where it can be devastating for the older child to see the younger sibling at the same level or higher and they end up moving on from gymnastics. Not a situation I envy. I am thankful that even though my little DD loves gymnastics, she does not want to do gymnastics competitively.

And I do think that you should consider the philosophy of the gym and if it really fits with how you want your daughter trained. This will be something she has to deal with as she moves up the levels too. Will it be some other skill when she moves from 5 to 6? And then another 6-7 months of no uptraining? I know some gyms do it this way, but just doesn't seem like smart training, especially for kids repeating levels.

Good luck.

 

[gym law mom]

Several other red flags popped up from the OPs more recent posts. 5 hour of practice is not really beneficial at these lower levels. The kids really stop learning and focusing after about 3 full hours. Sounds like they almost over condtion. Spending 1/2 of each practice on conditiong seems way over the top and actually pointless. From the way you describe the program this lack of uptraining would be an issue when she wants to move from L5-6? I'm onboard with asking if she could come for 1 practice with the L5s. I will say that with her lack of a kip she would not be on a L5 team at either gym we've been associated with.