Coaches Leg position in back walkover

[Geoffrey Taucer]

What is the advantage of training a back walkover starting with one leg up?

 

[gymdog]

Well training it, it requires more control/strength/balance. Competing it, it just shows control, somewhat aesthetic I guess, kind of the "virtuosity" thing - going above and beyond.

More important to me is that the chest lifts before the leg falls (lever through arabesque) on the finish.

 

[nevertooold]

• Keeps the athlete from shifting weight onto the front foot as the reach back
• helps align starting position straight upwards from the base foot
• requires more control
• shows balance, flexibility, strength
• more artistic

A bwo that begins with the lead leg lifted 30-45 degrees above horizontal, stops in a well aligned 180 degree split hs and levers down through needle scale to arabesque is one of the most beautiful skills in women's artistic gymnastics in my opinion.

 

[CoachTodd]

Just one slight addition. By keeping the weight on the back foot, it helps the walkover go straight on the beam instead of off toward the gymnast's less dominant side. i.e. a righty falls off to their left.

 

[gymnut1]

It is the norm in the UK and expected to start with the leg up. I notice in USA level 6 videos hardly anyone does it like that in USA. I just think it is technically more correct for the reasons noted above and also much much prettier.

 

[gymdog]

Just one slight addition. By keeping the weight on the back foot, it helps the walkover go straight on the beam instead of off toward the gymnast's less dominant side. i.e. a righty falls off to their left.

Can you expand on this? I'm not disagreeing, but I've done a lot of back walkovers on beam in my life and I'm not sure this is my personal experience. I think I'd be more likely to fall off to the left. Or equally as likely. That's hypothetical, but when I was less experienced.

 

[CoachTodd]

Can you expand on this? I'm not disagreeing, but I've done a lot of back walkovers on beam in my life and I'm not sure this is my personal experience. I think I'd be more likely to fall off to the left. Or equally as likely. That's hypothetical, but when I was less experienced.

From what I've observed this is what happens. It isn't to say it is the same for everyone.
If we use a righty as an example, they are standing on the beam with the right foot in front of the left. If they push their weight onto the front foot (right) the hips begin to open slightly to the left. This would make one think that the walkover is going to over shoot the target to the right side of the beam but from what I've seen, when the gymnast arches back to put their hands on the beam, the compensate for the incorrect hip direction thus they tend to reach back and to the left. 90% of the time, if they fall, they fall toward the left side of the beam while 50-60% of the time, the miss entirely.
When I push them back on the correct foot, they go straight.
I was as confused on these as everyone up until last year. I think I learned the weight needs to be on the back foot from a 10 year old then verified it with other coaches and testing.

The day I stop learning new things in gymnastics is the day I stop coaching.

 

[gymdog]

Okay, I guess from my perspective I feel a gymnast performing BWO on beam should not be shifting the weight forward as this is a very big mistake in the BWO. I don't typically see this problem on beam. When I teach BWO on floor I don't think the way I spot allows for it, however when they go by themselves I often might see it especially if the kid is afraid. Then they don't want to go back in the correct position to push the shoulders over the hands. This is the main issue with shifting the weight forward, the shoulders won't go over the hands (head often out) and in the case there isn't enough power for the skill to go over straight.

I teach first a bridge (lift arms and legs) then a bridge kickover on beam (this is after they can do candlestick and a back roll). Once they can do the bridge kickover I'm pretty confident with their momentum and direction. If they can't push shoulders over hands in the beam position then we keep working on it because that isn't a good sign. However the next drill I still feel is important for stability and that is to do the first part of the skill into a bridge (no kickover). Basically the front leg will lead back as with a back walkover but when the hands hit the skill "freezes" so they end in a bridge with one foot straight up. This may be best done on a softer surface but can even be done on the beam by more advanced gymnasts. Look for the leg that stays down not to "buckle" with the knee going over the ankle as the kid starts to arch back. This can be done with the leg lifted but does not have to. When they can do this without that issue and can do the bridge kickover, there should be no physical problem with performing the skill with no weight shift and they can point their front foot out in front which lends some balance and stability at the early level of this skill (I agreed earlier that lifting the leg would be ideal, however I would not require this of my level 6s, especially in competition routines).

But basically if they try to make any adjustment to slow the skill down it probably won't go over straight unless they have really above "tight" flexibility. The rest of us need to get the shoulders over the hands as quickly as possible. Buckling the support leg is a direction error with the momentum in the skill, much like doing that out of a RO would cause the head to go back and shoulders probably to collapse on a BHS. So in essence I agree it is true that standing on one leg is more likely to make them push through their leg and show stability which will avoid the problem of the incorrect shoulder angle.

However I think there is some merit in keeping the dominant leg pointed in front for the beginning performance of this skill on beam. I would also recommend breaking down the skill as above, and also make sure they can do other backwards skills on beam (back roll, backwards bridge walk, bridge and lift arms and legs) before doing the BWOs and BHSs. This way they can isolate each part of the element and learn which muscles stop and start the positions (i.e. doing the back bend to "freeze" on one legs, and pushing the shoulders over in bridge to do the kickover). Also train a lot of split handstands to lunge, lever, lever to jump (using correct punching action for beam series), and lever to walk back on toe.

This will give them more confidence in correcting and controling the positions the skill can end in, and also lets you train that end part many times with less stress on the back, which I think is the most important thing in our beam training. If they can't do good, even split handstand (parallel to beam, not necessarily perfect 180, but even) with tight legs (you'll see a lot of girls have the semi bent leg, the easiest way to fix or improve this this is to point harder through the toe) then they are going to struggle with the beam acro.

 

[ShootingStaRr]

In NZ, backward walkovers all start with the leg up.

Although it requires great balance and focus, It looks much nicer.
- It allows the gymnast to stretch the shoulders back and use the
shoulder to kick over, rather than crunching the back; which
leads to injuries.
- It allows extra time for the gymnast to control the movement.
When the foot is down, you use the movement of the leg to
gain momentum to drop and kick over, rather than the leaning back
of the head and shoulders and a small push off of the foot to kick over
- Allows for control. Makes it easier to hold the split and look much more
graceful and tidy
- The leg being lifted acts as a counter balance for all the weight and force
being shift backwards, which helps balance and control also
(perfect on beam).
- Allows the gymnast to make sure they are tight before the drop back,
also makes sure that it will go backwards in a straight line when they
are tight.

 

[10.0]

When I did gym back in the 80's (giving away the fact I am old) starting with the leg up was standard and I believe that was how USAG had the skill written to be done. As a matter of fact at my gym a prerequisite to move from level 5 to 6 was a back walk over with the leg lifted to 90 degrees done slowly to a full 180 degree split in the air to a needle scale finishing in arabesque also 90 degrees. It held up a lot of kids. Although it was an elite gym and the move up standards were very high. Now USAG just wants the leg straight, pointed toes on the floor of the kicking leg, which is probably good as 99.999% of the kids could probably not do leg up until optional levels. I do miss seeing it though, it was beautiful!

 

[emacmommy]

We start with it down for confidence but as soon as I see confidence on bridging down with a foot out we encourage leg up.

I see the bad habit of leaning forward onto the front foot some and then trying to push with their foot to kickover the walkover too often when I let them keep their front foot on the floor for too long after they've confidently got the lower down. This of course allows the knee of the standing leg to bend slightly forward over the toes causing a buckling action, which usually continues to degrade the backwalkover into all sorts of wrong body positions and bent legs. It also means they must use their lower back far more than is needed or recommended for accomplishing this skill. The shoulders should take the brunt of the flexibility and the hip flexors should be pulling the lead leg over through the splits as the arm pits and shoulders continue to open (push) to get over.

 

[MissBear]

We spend a LONG time on a floor beam with a block placed at the end of the beam. The lifting leg is held just above the block and the supporting leg is very close to the block. This both reinforces starting with the leg up and prevents the supporting knee bending and the weight shifting forwards.

Two additional reasons to start with the leg up (from experience)
It makes it more likely the leg will remain straight as the gymnast has already lifted 'from the toe' to horizontal.
It reminds some of the younger gymnasts that they are aiming for a wide split handstand.

I believe the illustrations in UK coaching guides show the 4 split positions in the back walkover on floor as on beam.

 

[mado4]

Well I know this issue is probably "old" but I need to add one important statement:

To start a BWO with one leg up is important for the health of your back ! Bending down without holding up any leg is extremely hard on your back. That is why we do not do any back limbers in Germany- at least younger coaches
Holding one leg up keeps the lower back in better healthy position. Also the bridges have to be done with straight legs, shoulders over the hands. Reason is the same health issue. I've seen a lot of older gymnasts with bad back problems and an arched back because their coaches didn't take care of it !
Another question: when I traines in the US, I have never seen kids "rolling out" after doing back walkovers. That means the get in a little ball position and roll back and forth...do you do that ?

 

[Deleted member D3987]

then this must've been after 1988? there was no 5/6 prior to then.^^^

 

[Deleted member D3987]

When I did gym back in the 80's (giving away the fact I am old) starting with the leg up was standard and I believe that was how USAG had the skill written to be done. As a matter of fact at my gym a prerequisite to move from level 5 to 6 was a back walk over with the leg lifted to 90 degrees done slowly to a full 180 degree split in the air to a needle scale finishing in arabesque also 90 degrees. It held up a lot of kids. Although it was an elite gym and the move up standards were very high. Now USAG just wants the leg straight, pointed toes on the floor of the kicking leg, which is probably good as 99.999% of the kids could probably not do leg up until optional levels. I do miss seeing it though, it was beautiful!

then this must've been after 1988? there was no 5/6 prior to then.^^^

 

[gymdog]

A good BWO should be a prerequisite to move from level 5 to 6 now...maybe I wouldn't require 180 split, but being able to hold the leg up, control the handstand, and move through arabesque on the way out. Also the kids SHOULD move through a lever position on the way out. It's not true that they just need "legs straight, toes pointed." Also where are you seeing that 99% of kids can't hold their leg up doing a BWO until optionals?! I could do this before I competed (though I was more of a L6 skill level when I started competing, but still not an optional), and the skills when I did compulsory routines in the last cycle were pretty similar to what they are now. Most of my compulsories can do this, some of the 4's can't consistently.