WAG Tight shoulders?

[IreneKa]

The vast majority of gyms will teach a back walkover before a back handspring. We do, and we wouldn't generally teach a back handspring until the gymnast has a back walkover.

However, the exception is kids with very inflexible shoulders. I find that if a kid is flexible enough to do a back walkover but can't do it, then they are not ready to do a back handspring because there is generally a fear issue about going backwards. However, if they aren't flexible in the shoulders this is usually what is stopping them so I don't make it a prerequisite.

That being said a certain amount of shoulder flexibility is needed to make the back handspring safe and functional, so if there is not enough flexibility here I would not teach a BHS until it improves. Have your DD stand up tall and try to put her arms to her ears while keeping her back perfectly straight. If she has to arch her back to get her arms to her ears then learning the BHS should be put off until the flexibility improves.

That's great that the coaches are now getting more educated on the subject!

In all the years no one ever mentioned to us anything about DD's shoulder flexibility. Not her coaches, not her sports orthopedics doctor when she started having back pain, not multiple PT's (one of them former gymnast). They talked about her hips, her posture, her core, etc., but not shoulders.
Until we went to see Dr. Dave Tilley (the guy who writes http://www.shiftmovementscience.com/ blog), and he told us that DD's shoulders are not flexible enough. Too late at that point, the damage had been done, and she had to quit gymnastics. Makes me wonder if things could have been different if her coaches were more aware of this issue and caught it early enough.

 

[triplethreat+1]

Here is her bridge. It has improved but very slowly. I also had her raise her arms up, she could get them to her ears but it definitely took effort- she automatically wanted to arch, then when I reminded her to keep her back flat, at first she went into hollow position lol, with arms angled forward.

 

[Iwannabemargo]

oh yes, way off in the shoulders, leads to lower back compensation

see how mine's shoulders are much more open, if she was bridging they would be even further back

 

[triplethreat+1]

Yes I see! Thank you! I was pretty sure it was her shoulders, but now I can see that she doesn't open them in comparison. So is that stiffness or technique?

 

[Iwannabemargo]

could be both. Mine always practised her bridging by lying perpendicular to the wall, hands to the wall then pushing up. The idea was to flatten her wrist, elbows, armpits and chest against the wall, legs elevated on a poof or table to ease the back

 

[Flyaway]

could be both. Mine always practised her bridging by lying perpendicular to the wall, hands to the wall then pushing up. The idea was to flatten her wrist, elbows, armpits and chest against the wall, legs elevated on a poof or table to ease the back

My dd has stiff shoulders and what is described above helped immensely.

 

[triplethreat+1]

could be both. Mine always practised her bridging by lying perpendicular to the wall, hands to the wall then pushing up. The idea was to flatten her wrist, elbows, armpits and chest against the wall, legs elevated on a poof or table to ease the back

My dd has stiff shoulders and what is described above helped immensely.

Thank you both! I will suggest that to her

 

[3gymgirlsmom]

My DD has horrible shoulders , it has held he back. She has to stretch them all the time. So this thread thank you for posting.

 

[gymdog]

oh yes, way off in the shoulders, leads to lower back compensation

View attachment 6417

see how mine's shoulders are much more open, if she was bridging they would be even further back

Her shoulders are more open but to me this is a more dangerous bridging position than the other picture. What we're looking for is a balanced curve throughout the chest and spine with no hinge point. You can have shoulders over hands and still have a hinge point depending on how balanced their flexibility is through their chest, lats, shoulders, hips, and spine. This is the distinction most coaches miss. Avoiding lower back pain is about core stability and balanced arching with an open chest. In your picture the hinge point is right above her bottom in her lower back where you see there is a sharp V. This might be exaggerated by the leg being up and perhaps her hips are more open in a regular bridge. But it's worth pointing out because again, it's not all about shoulder flexibility despite a lot of posts in this thread.

By contrast in the picture the OP posted I see much more balanced curve. Strength also plays a role and if she collapses she may just have to get stronger. But there's no way to tell much of anything with a picture. Video would be more helpful. Tight hip flexors and quads are equally as problematic in achieving a balanced bridge shape as lat flexibility. Chest flexibility also plays a role. So does wrist flexibility.mAnd not everybody's joints are the same.

 

[Iwannabemargo]

absolutely, that wasn't a normal bridge picture, it was the only one I could find and was a copy of a photo shoot she did. Yes you can see her back is very curved. I was trying to illustrate the open shoulders. In a normal bridge her feet are much further away from her head and obviously both on the floor and pointing away from her head. Sorry, its not a great picture

 

[Aussie_coach]

She appears to have enough shoulder flexibility to do back handsprings safely.

Definelty not enough flexibility for successful walkovers, you need to be very aware of this. If she does try to do walkovers with such inflexible shoulders it will put a lot of stress on her lumber spine and this quite often leads to stress fractures in the spine.

 

[IreneKa]

Really curious now. @Aussie_coach and @Iwannabemargo , can you look at this video and tell me what you think of her BWO?

 

[triplethreat+1]

Her shoulders are more open but to me this is a more dangerous bridging position than the other picture. What we're looking for is a balanced curve throughout the chest and spine with no hinge point. You can have shoulders over hands and still have a hinge point depending on how balanced their flexibility is through their chest, lats, shoulders, hips, and spine. This is the distinction most coaches miss. Avoiding lower back pain is about core stability and balanced arching with an open chest. In your picture the hinge point is right above her bottom in her lower back where you see there is a sharp V. This might be exaggerated by the leg being up and perhaps her hips are more open in a regular bridge. But it's worth pointing out because again, it's not all about shoulder flexibility despite a lot of posts in this thread.

By contrast in the picture the OP posted I see much more balanced curve. Strength also plays a role and if she collapses she may just have to get stronger. But there's no way to tell much of anything with a picture. Video would be more helpful. Tight hip flexors and quads are equally as problematic in achieving a balanced bridge shape as lat flexibility. Chest flexibility also plays a role. So does wrist flexibility.mAnd not everybody's joints are the same.

Ha, and here I thought I figured out a 'simple' problem and solution..! If a tight chest is involved, doorway stretches will help both that and shoulders, right? And how can you tell with the hip flexors and quads? She is 1-2" from being all the way down on all three splits. I will try to post a video this weekend.

 

[triplethreat+1]

She appears to have enough shoulder flexibility to do back handsprings safely.

Definelty not enough flexibility for successful walkovers, you need to be very aware of this. If she does try to do walkovers with such inflexible shoulders it will put a lot of stress on her lumber spine and this quite often leads to stress fractures in the spine.

Would a bridge kickover be bad too then? She can't bend back into a bridge from standing without a spot, but last night she was super excited that she finally got her kickover on the floor without a block under her feet.

 

[Aussie_coach]

Yes, avoid lots of limbers. She should be doing her bridge with her feet on a raised surface as this will take the stretch away from her lumber spine into her shoulders and she should be doing shoulder stretches that don't involve bridging.

 

[vans2]

Um, this post is pretty much my DDs life! Tight shoulders, tight back, tight hips, and still doesn't have her "bad" leg splits down, but she'll loose her good leg split in less than 2 weeks if she doesn't continually stretch.

In lvl 4 our gym requires back walkover but they did have her train the forward roll because the coaches know her bridge kick over was a disaster due to begin so tight. We had to stretch her out for about 4 months at home (and gym) before she was able to go over, and yes, she got it! And now it's even part of her lvl 6 beam routine. So I can say, hands down, the stretching works miracles, but shoulder stretching doesn't work as quickly as the splits is what one of the coaches told us.

Here's her list of stretches (she's 13, going into lvl 6 in the spring):

- Standing on your feet while holding a stretchy band behind her back, lift up and over her head to the front of your body. Looks horrifying! Like your arms are coming out of their sockets, but it is one of the most effective for my DD.

- Cat / Seal / Cobra stretch.

- Door/wall bridge (where you use them to walk you into your bridge, then try to touch your shoulders to the door/wall).

- Door bridge (where you hang on to the door handle and go backwards into a bridge).

- Assisted back stretch (she lays on her stomach, puts her hands behind her head and locks fingers - kind of like what you might look like if you were surrendering ha ha -- then we pull her elbows inwards and her torso up off the floor.)

It also helps to do back walk overs on a mat with a piece of tape or line down the middle.

You guys keep going! It is possible to excel even if you're not flexible. We just finished our 3rd year of gymnastics and she's already in lvl 6.

Good luck!

 

[Aero]

There are a lot of muscles that must be flexible and strong in order to have a safe bridge position. It's complicated.

A tight chest will inhibit the bridge. This consists of:

• Pectoralis Major
• Pectoralis Minor
• Lattisimus Dorsi

A tight shoulder girdle will inhibit the bridge. This consists of:

• Teres Major
• Subscapularis

Tight abdominals will inhibit the bridge. This consists of:

• Rectus Abdominis

Tight hip flexors and quads will inhibit the bridge. This consists of:

• Psoas Major
• Illiacus
• Rectus Femoris
• Sartorius

There are many stretches for these muscles, and many can be found online. However, it is also sometimes a question of range of motion using active flexibility. That means, is the gymnast's muscles strong and stable enough to move through that range of motion. Active flexibility is just as important as passive flexibility, if not more.

A third factor may be that the gymnast may need to practice the position more and learn through motor programming how to efficiently hit that position. In other words, they have to know how to use the flexibility and strength. They may have enough, but aren't familiar enough with the shapes yet. I encountered this first hand with one of my own athletes. She is very strong, and consequently is also very tight. She could not do a straight handstand when she started. To this day, she is still very tight, but has gotten better. However, by continually doing shaping drills, she learned how to hit a straight handstand, even with her flexibility limitations. She is now 95% straight in her handstand, the only problem being that her ribs flare out the tiniest bit still.

Bridges, though... they are hard for some girls. It takes good flexibility in a lot of muscles to do a bridge that isn't dangerous. I told you, it's complicated!

 

[triplethreat+1]

Um, this post is pretty much my DDs life! Tight shoulders, tight back, tight hips, and still doesn't have her "bad" leg splits down, but she'll loose her good leg split in less than 2 weeks if she doesn't continually stretch.

In lvl 4 our gym requires back walkover but they did have her train the forward roll because the coaches know her bridge kick over was a disaster due to begin so tight. We had to stretch her out for about 4 months at home (and gym) before she was able to go over, and yes, she got it! And now it's even part of her lvl 6 beam routine. So I can say, hands down, the stretching works miracles, but shoulder stretching doesn't work as quickly as the splits is what one of the coaches told us.

Here's her list of stretches (she's 13, going into lvl 6 in the spring):

- Standing on your feet while holding a stretchy band behind her back, lift up and over her head to the front of your body. Looks horrifying! Like your arms are coming out of their sockets, but it is one of the most effective for my DD.

- Cat / Seal / Cobra stretch.

- Door/wall bridge (where you use them to walk you into your bridge, then try to touch your shoulders to the door/wall).

- Door bridge (where you hang on to the door handle and go backwards into a bridge).

- Assisted back stretch (she lays on her stomach, puts her hands behind her head and locks fingers - kind of like what you might look like if you were surrendering ha ha -- then we pull her elbows inwards and her torso up off the floor.)

It also helps to do back walk overs on a mat with a piece of tape or line down the middle.

You guys keep going! It is possible to excel even if you're not flexible. We just finished our 3rd year of gymnastics and she's already in lvl 6.

Good luck!

That is encouraging, thanks! We'll try some of those stretches.

There are a lot of muscles that must be flexible and strong in order to have a safe bridge position. It's complicated.

A tight chest will inhibit the bridge. This consists of:

• Pectoralis Major
• Pectoralis Minor
• Lattisimus Dorsi

A tight shoulder girdle will inhibit the bridge. This consists of:

• Teres Major
• Subscapularis

Tight abdominals will inhibit the bridge. This consists of:

• Rectus Abdominis

Tight hip flexors and quads will inhibit the bridge. This consists of:

• Psoas Major
• Illiacus
• Rectus Femoris
• Sartorius

There are many stretches for these muscles, and many can be found online. However, it is also sometimes a question of range of motion using active flexibility. That means, is the gymnast's muscles strong and stable enough to move through that range of motion. Active flexibility is just as important as passive flexibility, if not more.

A third factor may be that the gymnast may need to practice the position more and learn through motor programming how to efficiently hit that position. In other words, they have to know how to use the flexibility and strength. They may have enough, but aren't familiar enough with the shapes yet. I encountered this first hand with one of my own athletes. She is very strong, and consequently is also very tight. She could not do a straight handstand when she started. To this day, she is still very tight, but has gotten better. However, by continually doing shaping drills, she learned how to hit a straight handstand, even with her flexibility limitations. She is now 95% straight in her handstand, the only problem being that her ribs flare out the tiniest bit still.

Bridges, though... they are hard for some girls. It takes good flexibility in a lot of muscles to do a bridge that isn't dangerous. I told you, it's complicated!

Oy... Guess I'm off to do some research online. Now that I have some good direction

 

[gymdog]

Ha, and here I thought I figured out a 'simple' problem and solution..! If a tight chest is involved, doorway stretches will help both that and shoulders, right? And how can you tell with the hip flexors and quads? She is 1-2" from being all the way down on all three splits. I will try to post a video this weekend.

Well, I can't necessarily tell, but in the picture she appears to have a balanced curve but not a "tall" bridge. This can equally be from hip flexibility. I actually disagree with only doing bridges with straight legs and think it's generally better to get the kids into a position where their glutes are activated and they're trying to push their hip bones up. And also pushing out from the chest. The goal is to not compress areas of the spine.

Another thing is not everyone's joints are the same. The reason I say this is because in the picture it appears to me (although I might not be right) that she MAY have an abnormal carrying angle in her elbow joint (vargus). This is a generally harmless variation in joint type. Which is fine for everyday life if it isn't extreme, but not ideal for gymnastics. It would be best to have a straighter joint for gymnastics. Kids who have a larger than average elbow carrying angle in gymnastics often have trouble with bridges and handstands with open shoulders, etc. I'm not enough of an expert to say why that is, whether it's because they're more prone to joint tightness, the joint shape promotes movement patterns that cause restrictions, or because they're simply more unstable in those positions. It's probably a combination of all three.

I'm not really sure though, it could also just appear that way from the way her hands are turned in. I'm not sure if she was instructed to do that or not.

 

[triplethreat+1]

Ok, here are two short bids of her bridge/ attempt at kickover. I quickly had her do it as she was heading out, if her clothes are in the way I will try again later in a Leo. Also, this is my first time trying to post a video, so I hope it works ;p