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Twisting Direction vs Pirouetting Direction

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CoachL

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Apr 9, 2007
217
When you're looking at Pirouetting direction vs twisting direction how do you teach your kids. It's taken me a few days to finally wrap my brain around that a front pirouette posting on the right hand is actually a left twist. So I ask you this, when you have determined a kids twisting direction on floor and you begin teaching them pirouetting do you allow them to go their most comfortable direction or do you make the decision for them and tell them to pirouette? This concept is so confusing to me, so today I'm going to go into the gym and have to change some pirouettes and start trying to wrap my brain around this.
 

Geoffrey Taucer

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I just let my kids pirouette the whatever direction they feel most comfortable with. Only things I do require are that they twist the same way flipping backwards as forwards, and they turn the same way in blind changes and front pirouettes.

I view roundoff direction, twisting direction, and pirouetting direction as being completely unrelated.
 

CoachL

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Apr 9, 2007
217
I just let my kids pirouette the whatever direction they feel most comfortable with. Only things I do require are that they twist the same way flipping backwards as forwards, and they turn the same way in blind changes and front pirouettes.

I view roundoff direction, twisting direction, and pirouetting direction as being completely unrelated.
see thats where both you and I were and are incorrect you cannot allow a gymnast to blind and pirouette on the same hand. Read this article.

http://www.usa-gymnastics.org/publications/technique/2002/2/twistpreparation.html

everything that I "thought" I knew for years was incorrect I taught it the same way as you do, both go on same hand. But with the new code you'll get killed at regionals and nationals. I just spent about 30 minutes on the phone with Jack Carter getting straightened out on this concept.....whew my brain still can't wrap itself around it but he is correct.
 

Rick McCharles

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Feb 21, 2007
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Calgary, Canada
system for introducing twisting

There are 23 articles tagged with "twisting" on Gymnastics Coaching:

http://gymnasticscoaching.com/?cat=49

The only iron clad rule is to twist the same direction on forward and backward somersaults. For SAFETY.

The biggest problem for coaches is what is sometimes called "Barani Confusion":

http://gymnasticscoaching.com/?p=453

To avoid that problem and simplify my life, here's my system:

http://www.i-needtoknow.com/gymnastics/technique/barani_confusion.html

Hope that helps.

:)
 

Geoffrey Taucer

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see thats where both you and I were and are incorrect you cannot allow a gymnast to blind and pirouette on the same hand. Read this article.

http://www.usa-gymnastics.org/publications/technique/2002/2/twistpreparation.html

everything that I "thought" I knew for years was incorrect I taught it the same way as you do, both go on same hand. But with the new code you'll get killed at regionals and nationals. I just spent about 30 minutes on the phone with Jack Carter getting straightened out on this concept.....whew my brain still can't wrap itself around it but he is correct.

YOu misunderstood me: when I say I want them to blind and pirouette in the same direction, I don't mean on the same hand; quite the opposite.
 
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hammy

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I'm confused, I'm sure I'm just misinterpreting something here and being goofy--what do you mean blind and pirouette on the same hand? Say i'm doing a full twisting giant (full blind change) on bars--I do my blind change on my left arm (pick up right hand) then I compete the full by pirouetting on my right hand (pick up my right arm). Is that what you guys mean?

Or do you mean something like: I complete both my blind change and pirouette by first picking up my right hand?
 

Geoffrey Taucer

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I make my kids blind and pirouette in the same direction; in other words, if the blind starts by lifting the left hand, the front pirouette starts by lifting the right.
 
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hammy

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Thanks for clearing that up! It makes sense to me to keep the turn going in the same direction; it makes the skill more fluent and smooth. I believe doing the blind and then pirouetting on the same hand (turning back the way they came) holds less value than completeing it the way you stated (same direction).
 

Geoffrey Taucer

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Well if you want to eventually turn it into a full pirouette or a rybalko, it has to keep going the same way.

Slight tangent here: has anybody here ever done or taught a rybalko? It seems to me like it would be really easy to learn (the progression being blind change, full pirouette, blind change to heely, rybalko), but it's fairly highly valued (C to mixed grip, D to double el-grip) and I rarely see people doing them at JO meets. Is there some reason why that progression wouldn't work, or would be harder than it seems?
 

blantonnick

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What I am about to explain is something that I am not totally in agreement with but I believe is a very interesting way of looking at the concept of twisting direction…A fellow colleague of mine, and I were on the topic of twisting and he brought up a very thought provoking way of looking at the direction of twist and its implications.
My colleague, decided after retiring from gymnastics to take up bull riding. In bull riding, the participants are strapped into the bull by one arm while the other arm is used freely to try and maintain balance for an allotted amount of time. On the first attempt, he was asked which hand was his dominate (right arm) and which was his non-dominate (left arm). Coincidentally, he was instructed to strap his left arm down to the bull, and use his right arm as the balancer. In other words, his non-dominate arm was used as a stabilizer, while his dominate arm was the active/working mechanism. Bull riding caused my colleague to question many things about sport and its implications. One of these questions became – How and Why to we come to choose a particular direction of twist for gymnastics.
I think the majority of us would conclude that the majority of the world’s population are right handed. In other words, right-armed people dominate the world, left handed people are a minority (I am one of them). It is quoted in Wikipedia that ‘In 1998, a study suggested that approximately 7 to 10 percent of the adult population was left-handed’ (Hardyck, C., & Petrinovich, L. F. (1977). "Left-handedness", Psychological Bulletin, 84, 385–404.)

Following this well documented concept, there are many examples of sport adapted to this majority. In almost all racing sports the track goes counter-clockwise around the track (in the USA). I do not believe that this is a coincidence, rather I think that racing has adapted to the fact that when you turn a steering wheel, you pump your right arm, or you push the bike handle, the majority of the population find it more comfortable to use their right arm to drive through the left turns. Therefore, it seems very interesting to think that the only sport in the USA that goes clockwise around a track is dog racing, a non-human driven sport!
In gymnastics there are some who have adapted the way they teach gymnasts to this concept. In some nations, for instance the former Soviet Union, the choice has been standard in which direction to twist – it is deemed left for all individuals, regardless of haptic/optic testing, left is standard. There are exceptions to this rule, Vitaly Sherbo being one of them, however, we have to ask why this would be the case?
If you run along the principle of the non-dominate arm to stabilize and the dominate arm to provide work as presented above in the bull riding paradigm, then it makes more sense. The coaches are considering that the majority of their gymnasts will be right handed so why not let their left arm be the stabilizer and allow the right arm to throw across their body to work a left twist. It seems that almost 90% of the time they will get the choice correct, considering documentation has been given that between 7 – 10% of the adult population is left handed.
But what about those 7-10% in those countries that choose only one direction? What happens when they learn to twist the wrong direction? I am a left handed person and learned to twist right…It seems that I fit the paradigm in twisting. I have tried twisting left but it seems that I twist early and can not seem to drive the twist fast no tight enough. Why do I twist early? My dominate arm seems to want to work faster instead of having a stabiliser to set the twist squarely first.
The conversation has been very interesting for me to examine my own gymnastics and this seems a great forum to think about the implications of the majority of the population being right handed and how it has affected gymnasts and coaching principles in twisting. Discuss….?​
 

ihraxhunnie

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Feb 6, 2008
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blantonnicks post has helped me most honestly. i like the more common analogies of turning a steering wheel. the optic and all the other articles almost left me more confused than i was when first arriving upon the question of which way do i turn and why does it feel more comfortable going left when i'm a righty?


in simple words - thanks. :D
 

Valentin

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Nov 12, 2007
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HUmm blantonnicks interesting points. I for one am not a great fan of the twisting directions topic, but glad to read on what others think. To me it make perfect sense to use ones dominant arm to create the twist..or to try to initiate the harder/faster wrap action.
I know the Chinease still! use the twist to the left don't care who you are rule. Seems to work for them, then again we only see the ones it works for haha.

Why does it feel more comfortable going left when you are a righty? Well that is a good question and i dont think anyone can give you a good scientific reason, the easy answer is definitely because you percive that motion more comfortable.

I think that twisting rules are a little over exagerated. I think that you should twist whatever way feels right to you, and the twisiting same way as front and back rule goes, i dont know how much inbuilt safety that causes, and i would like to reasoning behind that..
To me it makes perfect sense to allow a gymnast to twist whatever way feels right to them in back and front. Take a Back layout with a 3/1 punch front layout 1/1. How does twisting in the same direction increaase the safety. If anything i think it would encourage dropping of the shoulders im preparation of the front twist..kinda like rolling out of in it rather then having to square of your front take off.

Same story as the pirouetting, If you feel comfortable turning to the left turn to the left regardless of how you twist. Reason being that there is soooo few instance where it might become a problem it dont even matter (if it means you will be a better piroutter for it in general). I also agree on blinds to continue in the same direction of the turn so that it smooth and continuous that is vital.

I for one don't think i have come across anyone who has presented good evidence for twisting rules. The whole right handed so you should twist right or anything like that don't sound right.
On rule actually that i so kind of agree with is that if you round of to the left (left foot forward) (i see that as left turn) it might be a good idea to twist to the twist to the left..but that don't reallllly matter unless you really plan on doing round-off the something twist. In which case if aren't rushing to do the twist of the floor then it doesn't really even matter.

I don't know i just don't great logic behind hindering natural favouratism in direction. Its like asking a right hander to throw with the left hand.. it will happen and it can improve but its just extra work for nothing.

Ideas, suggestions? I am i wrong? why? etc...
 

CoachL

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Apr 9, 2007
217
I think that you should twist whatever way feels right to you, and the twisiting same way as front and back rule goes, i dont know how much inbuilt safety that causes, and i would like to reasoning behind that..
To me it makes perfect sense to allow a gymnast to twist whatever way feels right to them in back and front. Take a Back layout with a 3/1 punch front layout 1/1. How does twisting in the same direction increaase the safety.
I may be not taking this quote properly. But you can't teach a kid to twist front and back in different directions if you ever want to introduce multiple flip and twisting skills. Its impossible to do a skill like a half in full out if you twist in opposite directions.
 

blantonnick

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blantonnicks post has helped me most honestly. i like the more common analogies of turning a steering wheel. the optic and all the other articles almost left me more confused than i was when first arriving upon the question of which way do i turn and why does it feel more comfortable going left when i'm a righty?


in simple words - thanks.



No problem....just remember this is not an iron clad rule that must be followed...when it comes down to it, do what is natural. There are plenty of tricks in the Code to choose from that will accomodate everyone!!!!
 

Valentin

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Hi CoachL

humm.. you do have a point for the skill you mention 1/2 in full out. Twisting in opposite direction would definitely make things harder. However, i for one have never seen 1/2 in full out. i suppose Diego Hypolito arabian full out could! be an instance where twisting in opposite directions is a pain, but its definitely not impossible. If you nothing he initiates the twist quite seprately from the salto, its not like everything is merging. So really he could have twisted either way.
I am not diagreeing here with you, i think you do raise a valid point, i am just exploring the topic a little.
If we look at current trends in gymnastics i raelly dont think that twisting opposite ways will have any impact on any of the athletes haha.. so i dont think we can say that being such a twister is a problem. I have heard that when people do double doubles twisting in opposite directions can be problematic as it causes some disorientation, however don't know how true that is.
However. in the quote/example i gave it was regarding twisting salto connections. There is raelly dont think twisting in opposite directions is a problem. However i am would agree that generaly if you twist one way in your front tumbling you tend to twist the other in your back tumbling.

Interesting stuff..humm.. but how useful is it?
 

cccam

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Dec 1, 2007
88
im not quite understanding this. I twist everything to the right. I read that article and everything it says gymnasts should do, is what feels correct to me. I can really comprehend anyone twisting things and pirouetting in two seperate ways.

i twist fulls to the right
and when i do handstand pirouettes i move my left hand first.
my roundoff starts with my right foot and i put my right hand down first.

it doesn't make sense for a gymnast to twist the wrong way because when you try to twist the other way, it just doesn't feel the same and you have to go with your natural instinct

the tests in that article is pointless because by having a gymnast actually do the skill, you'll find out what way their body tells them to twist
 

Geoffrey Taucer

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im not quite understanding this. I twist everything to the right. I read that article and everything it says gymnasts should do, is what feels correct to me. I can really comprehend anyone twisting things and pirouetting in two seperate ways.

i twist fulls to the right
and when i do handstand pirouettes i move my left hand first.
my roundoff starts with my right foot and i put my right hand down first.
Haha, actually, you're a perfect example of this: your roundoff twists the opposite direction of all your other skills. If your roundoff starts with the right foot, your body is actually turning to the left.

I agree with what you're saying though; I just let my gymnasts twist whichever way feels more comfortable to them.
 

lannamavity

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Sep 13, 2007
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You know, while Carter has some good points, I think that his frustration with teaching a giant-hop-full is a weak reason for forcing a kid to twist and pirouette in the same direction. Once in a while, the justification for his theories make no sense to me.

I don't think that twisting and pirouetting are that closely related, especially for women. I'm inclined to think that the consequences for messing with an athlete's natural tendencies aren't worth the fight.

As long as all twisting goes the same direction forward and backward, and all blind changes and pirouettes are done in the same direction, pirouettes/twisting/roundoffs don't need to correspond to eachother. In fact, it may be better to separate the two concepts.

Bottom line is that there is no "right way" because someone always comes along and breaks all the rules.
 

CoachL

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Apr 9, 2007
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humm.. you do have a point for the skill you mention 1/2 in full out.
Oops sometimes I should probably go back and read what I type, I meant to say half in / half out.
 

ihraxhunnie

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Feb 6, 2008
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ohio
im not quite understanding this. I twist everything to the right. I read that article and everything it says gymnasts should do, is what feels correct to me. I can really comprehend anyone twisting things and pirouetting in two seperate ways.

i twist fulls to the right
and when i do handstand pirouettes i move my left hand first.
my roundoff starts with my right foot and i put my right hand down first.

it doesn't make sense for a gymnast to twist the wrong way because when you try to twist the other way, it just doesn't feel the same and you have to go with your natural instinct

the tests in that article is pointless because by having a gymnast actually do the skill, you'll find out what way their body tells them to twist


see the difference between you and someone like me is that you already have your full and you've already decided which way is comfortable. for me i have no clue which way is comfortable for me. i find it extremely difficult to twist either way. honestly i feel just stupid to twisting it's quite frustrating. but i am a righty and do all of my twisting jumps on beam to the left. on vault i do half on half off twisting right onto the vault and left off.
 
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