WAG Do bad warmups influence judges?

[Gymnasticsfun5555]

Yes judges do watch the warm ups. When it is time to judge the actual performance, that is all they focus on. I've seen many girls do bad warm ups and nail it and vice versa. Judges focus is only on the performance and nothing else but that moment.

 

[MILgymFAM]

Something that I think is interesting: last week my DDs coach told us in no uncertain terms that judges (at least around here) do sometimes judge unfairly, on things girls can't control; that they have biases. He says my DD can expect scores significantly lower than he would expect for her (and we aren't talking amazing scores to begin with) because she will be in the oldest age group and he swears judges are harder on the older girls. We did see the scores lower as you got older in xcel meets, but didn't read much into it. I guess in the end it doesn't matter within age groups, if everyone is judges harshly, but he says it's bad for older girls morale. I just thought it was interesting because I all hear on here is how fair and impartial judges are.

 

[gymdog]

"Hume teaches us that no matter how many times you drop a stone and it falls to the floor, you never know what will happen the next time you drop it. It might fall to the floor, but then again, it might float to the ceiling. Past experience can never prove the future."

Bad warm-ups are not always an indicator that the real performance of the routine will be bad. I've also encountered warm-ups that really worried me, but sure enough the kid ended up knocking it out of the park when they went. Some kids are super clutch right when it matters. Give them a chance.

Just be there and be ready in case things go awry.

Not sure what you mean but gymnastics that worries me does not continue. Safety is the number one priority. I never let a kid compete unless they are consistent and if they are consistent but freaking out in a warm up I pull them in most circumstances involving bars and vault or tumbling because of safety. For example I've had kids not jump to the high bar in warm ups. No big deal but my policy is if you don't warm the whole routine up you can't compete. It isn't safe to go on the high bar for the first time doing the full routine when you didn't warm it up. Basically, I need to see at least adequate gymnastics in the warm up for a kid to compete. Something like falling back on a squat on then redoing it is fine - who cares. But not able to do it, scary, balking, whatever worries me because just doing it under pressure is not a safe way to do it.

 

[Deleted member 17723]

I have had AWFUL warm-ups and beautiful routines, and beautiful warm ups and beautiful routines. My scores stayed very similar. I've had warm ups where I fell on every skill in my beam routine and ended up getting a 9.4. I've also had warmups where I have landed everything and gotten a 9.7; so it's hard to say. But my scores usually stayed between a 9.2 and a 9.75 despite how well my warm up went, so I'm gonna say no it doesn't influence the score. Some meets the judges don't even pay attention.

 

[strawberries]

Judges have a pretty specific set of criteria (angles, position, height, etc) they watch for, and there doesn't seem to be much subjectivity involved.

I think of a girl asking her coach (who was a certified judge), "what did I get on that vault?" And the coach (who had just watched the vault, as a coach) responded, "I don't know. I wasn't judging. Do another one and I'll judge it this time."

The only exception I think of is when a judge is especially attuned to a mistake because of familiarity (like if the judge used to coach the gymnast and anticipates an odd leg separation that he may have missed otherwise), but even so, it would still have to be an actual mistake, and that sort of familiarity seems unlikely to develop during one warm-up.

 

[Gymmommy71]

Something that I think is interesting: last week my DDs coach told us in no uncertain terms that judges (at least around here) do sometimes judge unfairly, on things girls can't control; that they have biases. He says my DD can expect scores significantly lower than he would expect for her (and we aren't talking amazing scores to begin with) because she will be in the oldest age group and he swears judges are harder on the older girls. We did see the scores lower as you got older in xcel meets, but didn't read much into it. I guess in the end it doesn't matter within age groups, if everyone is judges harshly, but he says it's bad for older girls morale. I just thought it was interesting because I all hear on here is how fair and impartial judges are.

Gosh - that's very interesting if true. It's also an argument for pushing an older gymnast up to the next level more agressively than you would a younger one.

 

[gymdog]

Not always. Usually my oldest girls are the highest scorers because they remember the details best, but I only put kids in levels they are prepared to do successfully. I can only talk about my state but if someone said that in my state it would be a case of a coach making excuses to justify something. From the videos I see on YouTube, it basically the same though. Generally, older girls in compulsories might not have the same strength/weight ratio allowing them to do the skills as successfully or with the same amplitude as a younger girl. But it all depends on the individual. We had 13 year old level 4s getting 9.9s in my state, they way out scored the 7 year olds (as you would expect since they remember the details much better). But generally, the highest overall scores and most competitive groups for compulsory are in the middle which is 8-10 year olds. This is not because of the judges but because this is where the bell curve is centered and kind of the sweet spot between a talented young kid but not being so young they completely forget stuff. That's just the way the trends go, doesn't mean there aren't individual teens who can get super high scores but more rare for them to remain in that level when they could go Platinum or something.

 

[refugee]

Something that I think is interesting: last week my DDs coach told us in no uncertain terms that judges (at least around here) do sometimes judge unfairly, on things girls can't control; that they have biases...

I think there is some validity to this. The reality is, for many local meets, after a few years of competition (i.e. L6 and up) the judges simply get to know the athletes and what they're capable of. And while they might be surprised by what a gymnast might do during a routine, there is sometimes a preconceived notion about what the gymnast ought to be able to do. I have worked meets where judges have commented about what they expect, what a gymnast "always" does, etc. I don't know that the judges gave the athlete the benefit of a doubt or held a bias in the scoring, but it's clear the judges held certain expectations. I have seen meets where big name gymnasts (i.e. former elites competing JO) have scored higher than another gymnast with (in several opinions) a better routine.

 

[Aero]

Not sure what you mean but gymnastics that worries me does not continue. Safety is the number one priority. I never let a kid compete unless they are consistent and if they are consistent but freaking out in a warm up I pull them in most circumstances involving bars and vault or tumbling because of safety. For example I've had kids not jump to the high bar in warm ups. No big deal but my policy is if you don't warm the whole routine up you can't compete. It isn't safe to go on the high bar for the first time doing the full routine when you didn't warm it up. Basically, I need to see at least adequate gymnastics in the warm up for a kid to compete. Something like falling back on a squat on then redoing it is fine - who cares. But not able to do it, scary, balking, whatever worries me because just doing it under pressure is not a safe way to do it.

I agree. It's very important for coaches to understand that skills that cannot be performed safely should never be competed. It's simply not worth it for the kid to get injured. I think this problem shows up the most in later levels in the form of terrifying giants in Level 7, and heart-stopping Tsukaharas and Yurchenkos in Level 8. It's far better to take the long, gradual approach to teaching and learning difficult skills, than trying to rush the process just for the sake of having them in competitions.

I never said they were my girls specifically, they were just some that I've observed at meets. I've seen other girls do scary things in warm-ups, things that made me say, "that girl is definitely not capable or ready to compete that!" However, I was shown otherwise on a couple of occasions, so I've learned not to make assumptions. I can definitely agree with your view on requiring good warm-ups. I definitely see the value in it, and it's a huge reason why warm-ups exist in the first place. However, I will not scratch a kid based solely on the fact that she might be messing up the fist few times. In my opinion, the warm-up period before each event is not nearly enough time anyway, especially for certain girls. In practices every day I notice that some of my girls are able to do their assigned skill proficiently after only a few tries, whereas others can take about ten or more attempts before getting into a groove and remembering most corrections. Then there's the fact that the adrenaline of a performance atmosphere can really do wonders. I experienced this myself at every parkour and tricking performance I've ever done. I am not usually one to get warmed up quickly during training, but when I have that nervous excitement in me, I get springs in my legs and everything is super high and powerful. I've noticed this in some of my own girls, too. There are those whose performance does not change much between meets and practices, and then there are the girls that know how to use their excitement to improve their performance.

And just to clarify, I would never have a girl compete something dangerous, or something she's clearly not ready for. I just wouldn't take her competitive opportunity away from her if she isn't an "instant competitor," or perhaps takes a few tries to get up to speed. If there is even the slightest doubt, I am there for potential safety spots in case, too. This all goes back to the quote I put in my previous post; you just never know.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

...I am not trying to start arguments here, so hopefully people will be kind while they are frank.

I just would like to know. My daughter is in the horrible warmup, decent performance category....and I have always wanted to ask those 'in the know' if this influenced her scores...but I didn't know any 'in the knows' to ask! So...throw it at me.

no

 

[Gymnasticsismypassion]

Scariest fhs vaults I have ever seen. I don't think the girl got over a 7 something all season. I don't know why they let her compete gold, tbh, but not my kid so not my issue.

Oh god she competed gold that is horrible she's probably not even a silver!

 

[Yuenling]

Well, my DD had her lowest vault score last season after a particularly bad warm-up, even though her actual vault was decent. The coach scratched her head because her vault score was the same as some other vaults that had much bigger mistakes, and vaults that looked like hers scored higher. So we speculated that perhaps the judge might have been influenced by her warm-up. However, she was coming back from her injured foot, so maybe there was something off that the judges saw that we didn't see.

 

[wnl256]

But, DD is a compulsory gymnast and every meet she attends has 2 flights with dual equipment. ... The judges just rotate back and forth between equipment each flight.

I have worked L3-L7 sessions of meets for the last few years and they all seem to work that way. Now, I don't know what that looks like for upper level optionals. Could be very different as the pool of gymnasts decerases.

Most large meets are run that way -- compulsory or optional. That's the "modified capitol cup" format. And you're right that the judges don't really have a chance to see warmups in a meet like that except at the beginning of a session (if they're even back from the breakroom yet). Then there are meets that have a separate warm-up gym, usually in a different room. Not much chance a judge would see those warmups!

 

[gymdog]

Actually they see the warm ups when the time of the people warming up exceeds the time of the people competing, usually the judges walk over to the other set of bars or beam or vault immediately because they want to be ready to go. This seems to happen more often on bars than beam because people usually block time together on beam while it takes more time to figure out how to set the bars. And floor just has one floor usually but by design they're pretty much judging during the warm up period and then end the warm up when they're done. I know some states do a floor strip, but we don't, usually in our region the warm ups are like chunks of 30 seconds between the routines while the judges calculate the score.

 

[Splash123]

Hi, I'm in the UK. But when I'm judging, I don't judge based on the warm up. But I do try and watch a bit of each gymnast's warm up on my apparatus so that I have a rough idea of how the gymnast is going to perform each move and can get an idea of any bonuses they are trying for or any elements they are competing that will have huge deductions etc. but this is just to make a mental note of roughly what I should see when they come out to compete so I know what to expect. But not all the judges I know do that. From what I've noticed with fellow judges is that they watch for falls and big mistakes in warm up so they know where problem areas are and to be aware of those issues. Hope that helps

 

[gymdilettante]

Haha when I read the title of this thread I thought it was referring to warm ups like the piece of clothing and I was somewhat flummoxed...mystery solved!