Do judges really hold back higher scores in the beginning of the meet?

[Muddlethru]

I've heard this often enough. Our coaches say it all the time. But I often wondered the validity. More often than not, I see the best gymnasts in a team be the last to compete. And I have heard that judges typically hold back giving high scores at the beginning of the meet. Is there truth to this?

 

[kimskids]

I am fairly new to gymnastics but I have never heard this. My daughter at the meets she has competed in has been one of the first in her line up and has scored first AA in the last several meets?

 

[lilgymmie7]

I've heard this too. But I still don't get the line up ideal of putting the best gymnasts up last. If that is true, then shouldn't the best girls get the higher scores anyways? Otherwise, are they just good because of the score? And I know the answer to that question already. I coached, but not at a team level so I am clueless about that factor.

 

[MaryA]

I've noticed that, when our coaches put the girls in order to compete at a meet, they tend to "save the best for last" but I have no idea why. In my mind, it would be a self-fulfilling prophesy. The girls KNOW the coach arranges them this way (at least by age 8 or 9 they do), so going last in the event would be a vote of confidence from the coaches, wheras if you're in the first couple of girls to compete, you know that the coaches don't expect you to do as well. I would think that would effect your performance to a certain degree. Though I know my daughter did enjoy the fact that she was placed later and later in the line-up as the season continued!

As for whether or not judges are reluctant to give out high scores early in the meet, I have no idea. I would imagine that the good judges try to stick as closely to the code of points as possible without paying attention to what gym they're from or what rotation they're on. But who knows?

 

[Mariainlv]

Do coaches always get to choose order? I thought that at some meets the order was not set by the coach? I have no idea re: judges etc. I expect they follow the code of points and have no experience to suggest other wise.

 

[Muddlethru]

I've heard this too. But I still don't get the line up ideal of putting the best gymnasts up last. If that is true, then shouldn't the best girls get the higher scores anyways? Otherwise, are they just good because of the score? And I know the answer to that question already. I coached, but not at a team level so I am clueless about that factor.

Lilgymmie7, I don't fully understand the rationale about the line up either. But things got a little clearer to me yesterday. My DD was testing for the physical fitness at school. To get presidential, she only needed 3 or 4 pull ups. She did 16. Her good friend, who also happens to be a teammate at her gym, did 17. They had talked about it at gym. Her HC asked "well who went first?" And they told her my DD went first. And the HC said to my DD that is why the other teammate did an extra pull up. And that if my DD wanted to win, she should have waited to see how many she needed to get the most pull ups. My experience also with sports proves this accurate. The best athlete always goes last so that the athlete can assess the competition and be able to do whatever it takes to win.

And kimskids, I also think sometimes they put the "newest" team member first even if they score better than the rest. I've heard this line up practice done at our gym as well. I think there are just too many variable to determine line up.

And to Mariainlv and MayA, I do believe, or would hope, that the judges stick to the code of points and that the line up does not come into play. But I just wondered if even subconsciously judges hold off giving high scores in the beginning of the meet. It could have some truth to it since I think it is human nature to "hold off" and not give everything we have right away. We are always told, "don't spend all your money right away", etc. Am I way off?

 

[MaryA]

It could have some truth to it since I think it is human nature to "hold off" and not give everything we have right away. We are always told, "don't spend all your money right away", etc. Am I way off?

True... but it's not like the judges are going to run out of 9's or anything...

 

[3rd_time_around]

i've seen it many times, or at least it appeared to be so. My daughter was first flight, first session, first person to go on vault at last years level 9 regionals. She did a really good vault, I've watched it several times since. she got an ok score of 9.225. By the last rotation, last flight, she was 4th AA with 3 girls to go on vault. Every one of them got a higher vault scores, some with steps on landing, low vault, etc. I saw many worse vaults get higher scores as the meet went on. I re-watched her vault sitting there, and it was better than some that were getting 9.4s. So, maybe they did, maybe they didn't hold back. Or, as the meet goes on, the judges become less vigorous in their scoring, as they are probably pumped and ready to go like the gymnasts are--adreneline, ya know what I mean? As the meet wears on they are not as strict? Just one of my theories.

 

[gymdog]

Not really. I suppose you could say there could be a sort of expectation which might slightly color things, but I don't get too worked up about these things. In fact, I pretty much rebel against the establishment and order the kids based on maturity, desire, or random selection, but generally try to mix it up somewhat. I don't want them too stuck on HAVING to go first or not first...if something happens you might have to go when you go. The order is predetermined for some meets, in some cases the coach can change it anyway, but there are going to be times somewhere that you can't always go in the same slot.

Edit: also, Kat Ding was up pretty early in NCAAs bars finals and the score held up through the meet. Little different than the average JO meet anyway, although in this case you would think the judges might be even more swayed by certain knowledge of the competitors.

 

[Azgymmiemom]

Our coaches change it up...and a lot of the time they defer to the gymnasts themselves. My dd has requested...and been granted...to go first to get it over with on an event she didn't like...and also to go last for whatever reason...or to go third or fourth. I've seen the other girls on her team request a slot and been granted it, too. I guess at our gym, they really just don't care what order they go in.

 

[mariposa]

Not sure about the scoring thing, haven't had experience with that here. I do like that DDs coach seems to always mix up the order they go in. I think she actually shuffles the cards before the event. At her old gym, they did the "save the best for last" and my DD was always up first. She doesn't like going first all the time. I remember hearing her coach say something about liking them to get used to going whenever. At State meets and the like, I don't think they can pick who goes first, so maybe that is a good thing.

 

[All Chalked Up]

Not around here.

 

[Kiwi]

At our competitions the order rotates for each event. So the first person on the list starts for the first event, then on the next event the second person starts and the one who was previously first will now be at the end. There is usually more than one team on each event, so the rotation is done on the whole group, not just one team.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

coaches change things up due to strategy. why the strategy? cause the truth is that most of the judges have no idea what they're doing most of the time no matter the beginning, middle or end of a competition. and they cheat to boot. this is a pandora's box. and this is all i will say on this subject matter.

 

[Panda-girl's Mom]

I did see one interesting thing when I sat at the score table with judges at the meet our gym hosted with one set of judges. They kept tract of the highest scores of the session they seemed to be very interested in what score would put which girl in first place. To give them the benefit of the doubt of being fair they seemed to want to make sure the gymnast who had the best routine would have the highest score, this seemed logically and fair to me. I do think the first session the judges are more tougher and they get tired as the day goes on and probally overlook more things.

 

[GymGirl's Mom]

I have also sat with judges for meets my gym hosts and I will tell you both times and on two different events I saw judges write down high scores- gyms from on seperate paper. And then debate with each other when watching other girls compete wether it was better than so-and-so. So I will say that the tables I sat at showed a bias towards gym A (we'll call it and really judged everyone else against their standard. Is it fair? I don't know? Does it happen-- yes. I have heard judges refer to a whole team's floor routine as "awful" one after another too. I think it's worse the more competitive your region is.

And I agree with Pandagirl's mom I do think it's in an efforet to be fair to the best gymnasts they see all day-- but I did notice that certain gyms really got more "darling" "adorable" "beautiful leotards" "they must do TOPS" comments than others-- some of which are subjective comments-- some of which are not.

 

[sportzmomov3]

Not all meets, but many have the rotation order "computer" generated and the coaches have no say in who goes first so the judges can't know who's "best".
As for judges writing down scores I've heard this myth too but don't necessarily buy into it. All I can say is that when my DD was at a state competition, she was the very first gymnast of her session to go up on an event that she actually won, hands down - no one came close. This would seem to contradict the theory being discussed here.

 

[gymdog]

Okay well, here's one thing. I'll use my example from earlier. By NCAA standards, Kat Ding's routine really didn't have any obvious errors. At other meets, probably could have gotten a 10 (she got a 9.9 something). But again she's going early in an NCAA finals meet. If they threw out a 10, then what would happen if they saw a routine that had no obvious errors but better amplitude or virtuosity? It gets a 10 too, but they tie then, even if the judges think one routine is "better." So they are probably less likely to give a 10 early in the rotation. But had she gone later she might have gotten a higher score, but the result would have been the same, since the judges thought that was the best routine and put out the scores accordingly (pretty easy to track in small pool like that).

Then again applying that to JO...well you aren't going to see 9.9s and 10s at any point in the session really (at least not where I'm from). Most of the judges I know don't even really track the highest scores as much as described at most meets...just applying the deductions pretty much separates everything out, especially for compulsories.

 

[Muddlethru]

Not all meets, but many have the rotation order "computer" generated and the coaches have no say in who goes first so the judges can't know who's "best".
As for judges writing down scores I've heard this myth too but don't necessarily buy into it. All I can say is that when my DD was at a state competition, she was the very first gymnast of her session to go up on an event that she actually won, hands down - no one came close. This would seem to contradict the theory being discussed here.

gigglesmom09, the line up at most, if not all, state meets are set by the state committee or chair, not by the coaches. And if you have an experienced judge, they know this. I think because judges know gymnasts compete in no particular order, there may be less partiality or bias at state meets. So the "theory" really does not apply to state meets. However, the rest of the year and/or the majority of the meets,at least in our state, the judges are aware that the coaches set the line up. Though there may be several other strategies, one of the most common is "saving the best gymnast to compete the last".

 

[Flippers Mom]

On the order of gymnasts - Our coaches mix it up. However, I always hope that Flipper won't go directly after one of her team members who has incredible form and execution on bars. After judging that young lady, everybody else looks pretty sad!

On judges giving low scores early in a meet - One of our old coaches is now a judge and she shared that she always keeps in mind that there are great gymnasts coming later in the meet. But, the scores are still fair - if gymnasts later in the meet don't perform better routines then those early in the meet, they just get even lower scores.