Early pirouette on bars, effect on skill value

[Geoffrey Taucer]

A free-hip to handstand with 1/2 turn and a swing 1/2 turn to handstand (ie blind change that swings back down the other way) are listed as Cs in the JO CoP.

Point 7 on page 59 says "In order to receive the value as listed in the JO CoP.... the circle element bust reach within 20 degrees of vertical prior to the turn. If the turn occurs prior to reaching the handstand phase (that is, turns at 21 degrees or more from vertical), the value will be based on the value of the root skill."

Several questions here:

First: do they mean the turn must finish within 20 degrees of vertical, or must start within 20 degrees of vertical?

Second: what do they mean by "root skill?" The first example given is a clearhip to handstand with a 1/2 turn prior to handstand, and it says this would be a B. Is this a typo? I mean, both a clearhip handstand and a handstand 1/2 pirouette are listed as Cs. What "root skill" are they basing this on? (If that skill truly is a B, what's the motivation behind this rule? It seems to me a clearhip to handstand with an early turn should be, if anything, worth MORE than one with a turn after the handstand is reached)

Third: does this mean that an early turn in a blind change causes the skill to go down in value? (If so, that is without a doubt one of the stupidest things I've ever heard)

 

[gympanda]

I'll answer as best I can without my code in front of me. But, I think the most important thing to remember is that you have to get within 20 degrees of handstand for it to be considered a handstand. So, if the skill is based on ending up in a handstand, then not getting there before you turn and then swinging back the other way without getting in the 20 degree "cone" will obviously not be the same as actually getting into handstand.

1) They are looking for the turn to start after the 20 degree point. The turn also needs to finish with 20 degrees of handstand to receive no deductions, if its not a healy.

2) I believe what the code is saying is that if a clearhip 1/2 that never reaches a handstand would be a B because it is not a clearhip handstand. Just like if a kid shoots for a clearhip hand, but doesn't get within 20 degrees of the handstand and dumps, she wouldn't receive C credit. I get your point about an early turn being slightly harder, but what the code is really refering to are those skills that are turning early and never getting within the 20 degrees of handstand at all (for those skills not going over the top of the bar.)

3) Hypothetically it would, but I'm having a really hard time picturing a situation that would ever happen, with something that was actually a blind change. I've seen some big swings with a 1/2 turn that swing back toward the low bar that just got above horizontal that coaches have tried to argue as giant 1/2's, this rule comes in handy for things like that.


I have been judging for a while and have never down graded an element for turning early, these skills tend to downgrade themselves by never reaching a handstand position.

Maybe someone else out there has an example of when they've downgraded a blind change, or a clearhip 1/2 that turned early, but still got to within 20 degrees of handstand eventually, but I've never seen it, done it or heard about it happening.

 

[Geoffrey Taucer]

1) They are looking for the turn to start after the 20 degree point. The turn also needs to finish with 20 degrees of handstand to receive no deductions, if its not a healy.

I completely agree with requiring the turn to finish within 20 degrees of a handstand, but it just seems strange to me to require it to start within 20 degrees; it seems to me progression-wise (ie building towards a blind 1/1) that it would make the most sense to allow the gymnast to initiate the turn earlier (so long as it still makes it to handstand).

2) I believe what the code is saying is that if a clearhip 1/2 that never reaches a handstand would be a B because it is not a clearhip handstand. Just like if a kid shoots for a clearhip hand, but doesn't get within 20 degrees of the handstand and dumps, she wouldn't receive C credit. I get your point about an early turn being slightly harder, but what the code is really refering to are those skills that are turning early and never getting within the 20 degrees of handstand at all (for those skills not going over the top of the bar.)

So as long as it reaches handstand, it still gets C credit?

3) Hypothetically it would, but I'm having a really hard time picturing a situation that would ever happen, with something that was actually a blind change. I've seen some big swings with a 1/2 turn that swing back toward the low bar that just got above horizontal that coaches have tried to argue as giant 1/2's, this rule comes in handy for things like that.

This makes sense. Still, though, it seems to me that it would make more sense to look only at the finishing angle and ignore the starting angle. This would accomplish the same purpose, wouldn't it?

 

[gymnut1]

your coaching experience is far superior to mine but I know early changes are heavily penalised in FIG, all turns are supposed to happen on the bar close to handstand. I know the JO rules are not the same but maybe they are leading them the same way.

Looking just at the finish angle only wouldn't achieve the same purpose if the gymnast has a really laboured slow turn.

I have heard coaches talking about how an early (or late) blind change is dangerous because the gymnast can peel off at an angle into the side bars. Maybe this is why it is discouraged.

 

[gympanda]

So as long as it reaches handstand, it still gets C credit?

Yes, this is my understanding. Unfortunately, judging does vary from state to state or region to region, so it might be advantagous to ask this question to your State Judging Director or your Regional Technical Director to see what they are messaging to your area judges about this issue.

 

[gymcoach34]

I doubt an early turn into the blind is penalized....if one understands the true tecnnique of a blind change. If that skills turns too early, they wont make it anyway-I also think that they are looking for where the turn ultimately finishes. Though..... I could see some judges not understanding the technique and the rules and penalizing for it. (Sorry Judges-one of my athletes got a .2 deduction last year for the backhandspring part of her yurchenko vault being "too archy"-lost a little faith after that.....)

I also think the deductions in the clear hip 1/2 are for late turning (dumping) over the bar. I cant really think of a situation where an early turn would come into play on that skill.... like gympanda says... if its too early, they arent going to make it anyway.

In my experience, most deductions are for LATE turns.

 

[gymcoach34]

I think whomever wrote about those swing 1/2 turns that are no where near vertical are where this early turn rule comes in to place.....I too have coaches try to get C's for them and they look like UFO's....

 

[gympanda]

Though..... I could see some judges not understanding the technique and the rules and penalizing for it. (Sorry Judges-one of my athletes got a .2 deduction last year for the backhandspring part of her yurchenko vault being "too archy"-lost a little faith after that.....)

As a judge and a coach I say "Amen" to that! I had a fellow judge tell me once she didn't take any foot form deductions on leaps for a L8 beam routine, because the kid was an optional, so she can have her feet however she likes. Wrap your brain around that one.

 

[gymcoach34]

As a judge and a coach I say "Amen" to that! I had a fellow judge tell me once she didn't take any foot form deductions on leaps for a L8 beam routine, because the kid was an optional, so she can have her feet however she likes. Wrap your brain around that one.

OH MY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Geoffrey Taucer]

As a judge and a coach I say "Amen" to that! I had a fellow judge tell me once she didn't take any foot form deductions on leaps for a L8 beam routine, because the kid was an optional, so she can have her feet however she likes. Wrap your brain around that one.

I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

 

[gymkat]

Now, let's be fair-- I've heard plenty of stupid things from coaches. A coach stood up at our state congress and insisted that routines with weird curved runs are overscored in my state and should never win state. Yeah, because the curved run is the most important thing in the routine!!!! Even the worst curved run can only get a 'T' on the paper...

 

[Geoffrey Taucer]

Now, let's be fair-- I've heard plenty of stupid things from coaches. A coach stood up at our state congress and insisted that routines with weird curved runs are overscored in my state and should never win state. Yeah, because the curved run is the most important thing in the routine!!!! Even the worst curved run can only get a 'T' on the paper...

No disagreements here; there are plenty of idiot coaches out there.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

you guys are making me laugh hard...

 

[Pineapple_Lump]

As a coach and judge I was fuming when another judge said they did not count the core skill for my athlete because she failed to do the high kick before her handstand pop roll. I could have tolerated that if some other child who did a "round off" where her feet hit the floor and she slowly lifted her chest to stand, lost her core skill too.