Fast-tracking to Elite - Pitfalls or red flags to look for?

[Stretchsportguy]

I love the decision that was made...I believe that the 10 tiered system is abused by gym owners and many use it to hold back athletes who have aspirations much higher than the gyms are willing to let them go. We hold back our gymnasts who are ready for higher levels using a boring and tedious system that helps feed greedy gym owners who make money off of barn yarding as many birds as they can fit into one coop. If a child holds promise then we need to get busy with them if we are going to get them where they need to be in order to win Olympic medals. The notion that a child needs to experience the formality of winning easy routines to boost their esteem so they will like the sport is just plain romanticism. The elite program has more than enough fun to be had for those who are up to it. And a child will have plenty of self esteem knowing they are working at that level. I say do it and never look back. If there is failure at any point in the process then the athlete can redirect their energy to alternate endeavors. In the mean time they will be learning what they need to learn and doing what they need to do in order to be the best in the world. Instead of working in a system that doesn't count toward and does not have Olympic medals as its incentive, the elite driven child will be working toward those ends much sooner and much better.

 

[Stretchsportguy]

If I ask myself whether the intrinsic nature of the 10 tiered system lends itself to develop world class gymnasts in the most efficient and expedient manner possible then my conclusion is no because it acts as an over adjusted pressure control valve which holds back progress. The existence of the Tops program is a relief valve that attempts to mitigate what the original powers that be installed.

We are the ones who decide whether a 6 year old follows the Olympic path. Its a path that is very different than the one a non-elite driven gymnast ought to follow. Its a path that is expedient, efficient, and teaches a perspective that wins gold medals.

We do not ask a 6 year old whether they want to put their heart mind and soul into winning a gold medal. They can't answer that question. A yes or no from a 6 year old is not and cannot be written in stone. Our collective expertise and experience dictates that as leaders in the industry we ought to be able to make reasonable decisions as to who are good prospects. After that comes the courage to make resolute commitments.

I'm bored of reluctant leaders who are as wimpy as the wimpy athletes that burn out or look back at the necessary sacrifices that were made with regret. Those of us who were there know that some athletes we bet on will burn out and that there is no going back to pick up on what was missed in life. We also know that successful leadership and their successful protégés are willing to take our chances and bet on those we believe in and give them all we have heart mind and soul. By doing so we understand that for a few it will lead to gold, God willing. And the others who didn't make it even though they were in the game, live on knowing they were in a place 95 percent of human existence will never touch and never experience in any endeavor they try in their life. Few know the exhilaration of living with the knowledge that you have reached the top 5 percent of human excellence in any human endeavor. Its a special place reserved for special people with extraordinary reserve and superhuman aptitude never visited by 95 percent of the rest of the population past present and future.

God bless our country and God bless the top 5 percent of human existance that hold the title called Elite.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

for the record...the elite level is less than 1/8 of 1 percent of ALL kids involved in gymnastics worldwide. i take it you are less traveled. thank God for all the other levels... in the USA there are over 70,000 registered athletes competing at all levels and disciplines. there are less than 1200 level 10 athletes in the USA. approx 420 of them qualified to nationals. there are a dozen states that have none. that's less than 5 percent of all participants. i will assume you agree that level 10's fall into your characterization of "human excellence". though i could argue that a level 6 gymnast attempting a back walkover on beam feels the same way as the elite gymnast when performing certain skills, therefore displaying human excellence in performing what seems a rudimentary skill that over 99.9 percent of the worldwide population would never consider attempting. all is relative, watson.

p.s. existence is what you meant and there is nothing "expedient" about the elite level in any sport. but i will agree that an elite athlete in most sports have "superhuman aptitude".

 

[Stretchsportguy]

Thanks for updating the record, dunno. I hoped someone would come forward with today's statistics. It gives what I said even more verity than I could muster on my own. You put a much better slant on what it means to be elite in this world in that regard. Especially in gymnastics. Thank you again.

According to the statistics you posted, Level 10 does not fall into the same category as working toward gold medals in the Olympics and falls short of that type of excellence. To hint that a tiered gymnast is tantamount to an elite gymnast is what I'm talking about when I complain about leaders. Level 10 and the tier program is not tantamount to the elite condition and your statistics prove just that.

I am disparaged to see you imply that expedience is unattainable at the elite level. At the point where expedience should be optimal and a model for the rest of the world to follow, I hear instead things coming out of this country's mouth such as you have deigned to imply that make what is barely plausible indeed sound impossible. Yes as the statistics you posted show it is almost impossible to be an elite gymnast and ever have that be a title you can own. But should an athlete be privileged enough to gain that type of advantage over the human condition then I pray that expedience is not an impediment for those souls who govern that body of human endeavor.

An elite system ought to lend itself to the expedient and efficient development of world class Olympic athletes in the most direct manner possible. We do ourselves a disservice when a system is in place that encumbers these principles. If the tier system was sufficient and not need to be bypassed then what were they thinking when the Tops Program looks to find exactly those kind of proteges who might win us some gold medals and can bypass or accelerate through the tier system? The fact that the Tops Program exists is a testimony in itself that says the tier system does exactly what I said...holds people back.

If you intend to reply to this post dunno, please do not bore me. I meant what I said about that. Let's take this to the next level and not beleaguer the process. We need gold medals and we don't need anything holding us back from that. Especially by leaders who downgrade what it means to be elite with statements that compare elite gymnasts with level 6 gymnasts. Your use of that simile was misleading and in no way supports the premise that a tier gymnast is as good as an elite gymnast. No dunno, you should not do that and you should not go there. How dare you downplay what it means to be elite.

 

[ginnymac]

Stretchsportguy:
Were/are you an elite gymnast?

 

[bogwoppit]

Ahem, just before this thread goes psycho here are the ground rules. Do not bring god into it (anyones god!) we do not do religion here.

Do not name call or insult and all will be well. State facts and figures. Stretch you are new to the Chalkbucket and please bear in mind the gentle culture of this place.

I am going to get a nice cool drink and sit back and watch!

I am also suspicious that Stretch is not using English as his first language so do bear that in mind.

 

[bookworm]

I think Stretch would be comfortable with the Chinese system where the child is picked at an early age to go to the Olympics and that's that...no say from the parents; barely sees the parents, just coached and trained to win Olympic gold ...but as the parent of a gymnast who has done elite, was a TOPS team member, and now is back at level 10, I can say that I am happy to have a say in my child's future...I don't really know where Stretch is going with this whole tangent and I don't think that TOPS means that the tiered system needs to be superceded as he implies...the TOPS program is a good strength and conditioning program and a huge money maker for USAG but kids who do TOPS have no guarantee for success just because of that.

Dunno: I thought you made a lot of excellent points about the number of gymnasts in this country and the # who even make it to Level 10 and elite.

 

[gymdog]

though i could argue that a level 6 gymnast attempting a back walkover on beam feels the same way as the elite gymnast when performing certain skills, therefore displaying human excellence in performing what seems a rudimentary skill that over 99.9 percent of the worldwide population would never consider attempting. all is relative, watson.

Quoted for truth. Probably the most insightful comment in the last few pages on the gymnastics experience and our role in coaching/supporting children in this sport.

 

[Geoffrey Taucer]

To see a bunch of chalkbucketeers rallying behind dunno as the voice of reason is certainly a welcome change....

ANYWAY

stretch, you seem to be working under the assumption that this sport (or any sport) exists primarily for the elite, and that the 99.9%. of participants who will never make it there are merely an unnecessary unpleasantry which is best ignored.

I think you could not possibly be further from the mark.

I think our sport, as any sport, exists primarily to serve those 99.9%. Kudos to the .1% who make it to the top, but they aren't the thing that brings me into the gym every day to coach. Our goal as coaches should be to see that EVERY KID WE HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO WORK WITH should get the maximum benefit out of the sport that we can give them. It's fun. It's exercise. Kids need both. If .1% of those kids happen to someday get rediculously good at it, fine, I certainly have no objections, but the benefits of this sport can and should cater to the masses, not just to the elite.

None of my students has yet gone elite. I can make you a long list of students of mine that I'm quite positive will never go elite. And I am a-ok with that.

The smile on a 9-year-old's face when she does her first kip is worth more to me than all the olympic gold medals in the world.

 

[LizzieLac]

Geoffrey - Very well said!

 

[Tumblequeensmom]

To both Geoffrey and Dunno.... Thanks for both of your insightful replies to Stretch.

 

[nevertooold]

If a child holds promise then we need to get busy with them if we are going to get them where they need to be in order to win Olympic medals. The notion that a child needs to experience the formality of winning easy routines to boost their esteem so they will like the sport is just plain romanticism. The elite program has more than enough fun to be had for those who are up to it. And a child will have plenty of self esteem knowing they are working at that level. I say do it and never look back. If there is failure at any point in the process then the athlete can redirect their energy to alternate endeavors.

Where's the bus? I think I might be about to dive under it

I've already gone on the record here about how much I LOVE level 3, and the mill circle, and compulsories, and helping each child reach THEIR OWN potential, and I was not an elite gymnast and I don't coach elite gymnasts, but.........

Isn't there some merit to what Stretch posted above? Seriously.

Isn't is sort of what they are doing in Australia? (i don't mean to offend ANYONE, just going by what i've read on cb about tracting the kids in one direction or the other early on.)

I think of lot of gyms tract the kids early on and I don't see anything wrong with that. And I don't see anything wrong with parents deciding to take that plunge. Yes, most will not make it, but what really is the harm in trying. If it is done safely, and the child loves it, what really is the harm?

 

[MdGymMom01]

Where's the bus? I think I might be about to dive under it

I've already gone on the record here about how much I LOVE level 3, and the mill circle, and compulsories, and helping each child reach THEIR OWN potential, and I was not an elite gymnast and I don't coach elite gymnasts, but.........

Isn't there some merit to what Stretch posted above? Seriously.

Isn't is sort of what they are doing in Australia? (i don't mean to offend ANYONE, just going by what i've read on cb about tracting the kids in one direction or the other early on.)

I think of lot of gyms tract the kids early on and I don't see anything wrong with that. And I don't see anything wrong with parents deciding to take that plunge. Yes, most will not make it, but what really is the harm in trying. If it is done safely, and the child loves it, what really is the harm?

I guess the harm lies in the fact that it is a gamble that not too many kids win. We all know that there are age requirements for the Olympics and they even have the elites broken down into Juniors and Seniors based on age. So, if there were no age minimums to compete at the elite level, then all this fast-tracking totally makes sense. Trying to get the kids to the higher levels as fast as possible would turn into a race with that goal clearcut and pretty easy to see. BUT, we all know that there are those pesky little obstacles that get in gymnasts' paths--fear, growth spurts, injuries, lack of interest and motivation to name a few. When you throw in all these aspects on top of the fact that most humans aren't even built to do some of these high flying tricks, it ends up being a big gamble of surviving in the sport.

If you think of it terms of the marathon, the goal would be to complete the entire race without hitting the "wall" at any given mile marker. Slow and steady runners end up finishing the race while the "rabbits" take the lead early but often run out of steam and never see the finish line.

 

[annabanana]

I agree with Geoffrey. It would seem that Stretch is implying that 99% of gymnasts should be tossed aside. I know there are a few who really do make it all the way to the top, and they should be very proud of their accomplishments.

However, in our house, this is not what our goals are. Both of my dd's (now level 7 and 10) look back fondly at all of their years in this sport. We remember good meets, meets that weren't so good. We remember time spent with other gym families, hotel stays, drives through bad weather. everything. Of course, we remember 1st place medals and ribbons, but also being with a great group of people. Neither of my girls are going to the olympics, and that is ok with us. They are going to come away from this sport with things that are much more important. As a mom, seeing my younger dd get up on the beam and do a back walkover when a month earlier she was scared to death to attempt it is worth more than anything. Or knowing that my older daughter claimed she would "never get a cartwheel' when she was 3, and she ended up going to TOPS camp twice and is now a successful level 10. These are the things that make me proud.

Both of my girls love reminiscing about good times spent in the lower levels. To them it was not time wasted, but rather time well spent. They love asking me if I remember this meet or that. This is a classic example:

"Mom, do you remember that time when I was a level 4, and you told me like a million times to use the bathroom before we left the house, and I didn't listen to you because I wanted to find my glitter spray. So then we got lost going to the meet and then you forgot about the time change, so when we FINALLY go there we were late and I had to go right onto the floor to warm up. And remember that we did beam last, and by that time I REALLY had to use the bathroom, and I couldnt because I didn't want to miss my turn. So I had to get on beam and do the whole routine while I had to go soo bad? And remember mom, that I ended up getting my best beam score EVER, only I didn't see the score because I had to run to the bathroom? Do you remember mom?"

Ahh, good memories of good times!!!

 

[Geoffrey Taucer]

Where's the bus? I think I might be about to dive under it

I've already gone on the record here about how much I LOVE level 3, and the mill circle, and compulsories, and helping each child reach THEIR OWN potential, and I was not an elite gymnast and I don't coach elite gymnasts, but.........

Isn't there some merit to what Stretch posted above? Seriously.

Isn't is sort of what they are doing in Australia? (i don't mean to offend ANYONE, just going by what i've read on cb about tracting the kids in one direction or the other early on.)

I think of lot of gyms tract the kids early on and I don't see anything wrong with that. And I don't see anything wrong with parents deciding to take that plunge. Yes, most will not make it, but what really is the harm in trying. If it is done safely, and the child loves it, what really is the harm?

It depends on what that tract entails.

There is nothing wrong with taking a talented and motivated kid and offering them more hours up to a certain limit.

I don't, however, like the idea of coaches and parents deciding for a 6-year-old that she's going to be an elite athlete someday, and she should therefore train 394875203945870923875 hours a week until she either gets there or burns out -- because odds are she'll do the latter.

Whatever advantages may exist to starting a very young kid on that track are in my opinion far outweighed by the increased odds of burnout. Better to let the kid train for a few years and, when she's older, decide for herself if she wants to put that level of dedication into the sport.

 

[bookworm]

there was a thread in Nov 2009 "to homeschool or not " I believe was the original issue with a 6 yo who was slated to be fast tracked and towards the end of the posts , I had submitted a post listing multiple GREAT gymnasts who had trained too much too soon (i.e Monica Shoji, Bianca Flohr, Carol Byrnes, Petra Mathies, Tessa Pama) and I think that this posting is reminiscent of that issue....that even if they are trained ad nauseum , most will likely burn out...

 

[nevertooold]

I guess the harm lies in the fact that it is a gamble that not too many kids win.

So the likelihood of failing is the reason to not try?

 

[sportzmomov3]

Wow, just saw the latest activity on this thread.

The original question posed was what to do with a 6 year old WHO HAS YET TO COMPETE, who seemingly has potential, and was invited to join a program labeled "the elite track." The decision was to take the elite route, but there never seemed to be a clear definition of what the "elite" track program really entailed (or maybe I missed that somewhere.)

Stretch's comments would make one think that he/she is truly ELITIST - by implying that the success of a level 6 in no way compares to that of an elite. EVERY level achieved is a success. There are quite a few level 10 gymnasts who can throw ELITE level skills but choose not to go the elite track. So, I would beg to differ that the level 10 is less successful or talented than an elite especially considering this - of the current 70-80(?) elites, a mere handful are actually COMPETING in a visible way (i.e. getting international assignments, which is ultimately what you gain in becoming an elite.)

People, we're talking a 6 yo with no competition experience who is being "elite fast-tracked." With all the variables in this world against successfully attaining elite status, this discussion seems a bit crazy. There are no guarantees in any sport, especially this one. Slow and steady wins the race (and stays healthy for life -during and post-gymnastics.)

 

[nevertooold]

It depends on what that tract entails.

That's really the long and short of it isn't it.

And depends on whether the parents are conscientious or crazy, it depends on whether the coaches are egomaniacs, it depends upon lots of things that change and reveal themselves along the way.

 

[MdGymMom01]

So the likelihood of failing is the reason to not try?

Good question nevertooold! No, not necessarily not try, but don't go into the "fast-track" with the idea that you WILL go to the Olympics or become elite. I would think that the goal with anything that one pursues is to be the best that they can be and see where the hard work and dedication takes them. It is important to remember that just because you are on an elite path, it doesn't guarantee that you will be an elite.

This is a very intriguing debate, because there are so many different scenarios that happen along the way.