Parents How common is this?

[new2gym]

My DD is a L4at a good gym in an area where there are several other “good” gyms. We have a Sept-Dec season, and the girls just had state this past weekend. The girls in my DD’s training group did very well, all of them (except one) placing in the top ten AA. Additionally, most of them placed top ten on every single event. Their scores ranged from just under 36 AA tomid 37 AA. So , I was surprised when I was just told that all of these girls would be “repeating” and doing L3 next year. Although they are going to spend the next few months uptraining, the coaches are planning on all of them repeating. Even the girls who placed 2[SUP]nd[/SUP] and3[SUP]rd[/SUP] AA at State.

My DD’s group has done very little uptraining (although most of them have at least some L5 skills already) and has focused on perfecting the L4 routines. There is another group (4/5’s) that practices more, and has done more uptraining. These are the girls that will be moving up (will “move up” to new L 4 next year). They will score very, very well next year.

So, my thinking is that there are two reasons to hold my DD’s group back. First reason being that the coaches are not confident the girls will “get” their skills in time, and second reason is for the sake of winning. I am starting to suspect it may be the second. These girls are mostly 8 and 9 year-olds (the most common L4 ages here in Wisconsin). There is no reason to believe that many of these girls wouldn’t be ready to compete new L4 by NEXTSEPTEMPER! I’m sure not ALL of the girls could have competition worthy skills by then, but I feel that most would. I just think they should be given the chance to earn a move-up. Also, what do these girls have to gain by repeating? Most of them have been on the podium at every meet, scoring just under 36’s through low 37’s. It seems like there is just not that much room for improvement. High 37 AA is usually the highest we see around here.
Is this common? Maybe every gym around here does this? I haven’t been around the sport long enough to know……

 

[JessLW]

There are gyms that do this (I don't think it is common, exactly, but it isn't unheard of either) and there will people who will say that there is value in getting a 38 and sweeping the all around at L4, but I don't see it. In my opinion, girls who are getting 37s at level 4 should be moving up unless they are lacking certain key skills. And I certainly don't see any point in announcing right now, in December, what the girls will be competing 9 months from now. You're right, they should at least be given a chance to get the skills before a decision is made. I'd question this gym's priorities.

 

[onebusymama]

I live in one of those "gymnastics states" where there are gyms everywhere! And a lot the gyms in my area do this for the sake of having a "winning" team. I'm not saying that your gyms purpose is this, but I would maybe question it. I think it is a bragging/marketing tool gyms can use to generate business. Especially for the Recreational preschool and L1 classes. People hear that these gyms have x amount of team gymnasts, and they always place 1st, so the MUST have the BEST coaches and the BEST strategies on producing AMAZING gymnasts.... I mean who wouldn't want the best for their child, but is it the best for the child or the best for the gym?

 

[krisnkids]

I have a real hard time with gyms having girls repeat a level til they get 38s. This has become so common in California that they have even tried doing a "platinum" division, so any girl scoring 36 and up at sectionals would be in that division. Evidently that didn't work because they haven't repeated it. Now I think they are trying to do "newbies" and "oldies". I guess what it comes down to is what is the philosophy of they gym? Sweep states? Each gymnast achieve their goals? Look good to bring in more customers? I'm sorry, but a child does not need to get 9.5s on all events to "succeed" at a level.

 

[LizzieLac]

It sounds like this squad has plenty of time to get the skills. Will some of them fall short? Possibly, but I agree the OP that the decision does not need to be made now. Frankly, the coach(es) may change their minds on this approach. We hear about that happening plenty.

I am a firm believer is discussing these things with the coaches to better understand how/why decisions are made. I personally have not always like the answer I got, and I may have even disagreed, but it took some of the mystery out of things.

They may not be trying to "stack the deck" even if it seems that way. For the record, while I know that these strong performances are marketing for the gym, it feels wrong for several reasons. But you should ask how the decision was made and why now. Good luck!

 

[sglemon]

Our gym does it, and honestly, it was a positive experience. Actually I am in one of those states where it is very common and you won't see many, if any, 36s or 37s winning states. We also had over 670 girls competing in level 4 states last year alone. The majority of the state winners are in the 38.3 to 39 range. My dd scored a 37.975 at state last year and it was only good for 4th AA. Actually she only placed in the 3rd to 6th place range on each of the 4 events. She scored a 36.975 at states after her 1st year and placed 11th in the AA.

The second year of 4 was very positive on many levels. First there was no stress. Second, DD won just about everything. Third they spent a lot of time working on showmanship, form, dance, etc.. Forth, they uptraind for level 5, so when they started level 5, the majority of the girls had all of their skills. At the start of level 5, they were working on form, dance, showmanship, etc... instead of spending time trying to teach skills and stressing over it. Also as a second year 4, you have a whole group of first year 4s look up to you. The second years got to assist with demonstration and there is a seniority feeling they get to enjoy. our gymnasts look really good and I am not being bias. We are not the top team in the state, but we are a very competative team in the state. I also think it is important, for a gym who has these rules to follow them. When the first year 4s start, they know they will be there for 2 years. It is the way it is.

I also suspect with the level changes, we may see a lot of gyms retaining girls where they are. There is an uncertainty with with just about every aspect, especially when it comes to the scoring

 

[DisMom]

Regardless of whether or not a gym is doing this to "win" or if they just want the girls to have the confidence that comes with getting 38s, I would have a huge issue with them telling me/my kid what level she will be competing NINE MONTHS beforehand. That is a really long time. And at age 8 and 9, depending on the kid, skills can come fast and furious. There is often a real "skill growth spurt" after L4. Just my opinion.

 

[LizzieLac]

Regardless of whether or not a gym is doing this to "win" or if they just want the girls to have the confidence that comes with getting 38s, I would have a huge issue with them telling me/my kid what level she will be competing NINE MONTHS beforehand. That is a really long time. And at age 8 and 9, depending on the kid, skills can come fast and furious. There is often a real "skill growth spurt" after L4. Just my opinion.

Couldn't agree more. This topic is near and dear to my heart, but do not really want to get into personal specifics, unless done privately. But there is so much that goes into deciding if a child is ready to move up or should repeat - some of it is abut the child and some of it is about the philosophy of the gym. That philosopohy may or may not work for the parent or the child, also for a host of reasons. So, it doesn't mean the gym's philosophy or approach is wrong. It just means is may not be a good match for everyone.

That beinfg said, 9 months is a long time. So, unless they have a policy - meaning it is part of their philosophy to have all kids repeat level 4, for example - I don't understand why the decision needs to be made now. It really warrants a conversation with the coaches to understand better.

 

[GymBee97]

There are gyms out there that hold the girls back to have that "winning" team. As someone said its not common but not unheard of either. Also sometimes you have a good gymnast getting the scores but mentally just aren't ready. Those young talented gymnast sometimes can't handle the move up especially if they are like the only 6yo in a group of 10 yo girls. There are just so many reasons gymnast who do score well might not be ready to move up a level. Scores are not and should not be the only deciding factor.

When you say 'next year" do you mean the Jan - April season? If so then that would be appropriate if you mean next Sept then I don't think it would.

On top of that the NEW levels will be coming into play Sep 2013 and I think alot of coaches are aprehensive about where their gymnasts will be placed, who will be able to do what etc. That first year of all this change can cause coaches to be cautious in moving gymnasts.

 

[funflips]

It takes quite a while to perfect level 5 skills after they learn them, especially the kip and connecting the bar routine, getting the casts high enough coming out of the kip to the high bar etc (for most kids anyway.) I am looking at our team for next year with the expectation that in order for them to be ready and perfected, they really need to be doing the skills by now. That isn't to say we won't bump them up if they are ready, but in general, it usually takes two years at level 4 to perfect 5 skills. The first year is spent perfecting 4 and uptraining where they're ready, and the second is spent working on connecting the 5 bars and getting stronger at vault -and of course floor and beam, but that isn't usually an issue. (Most of our 4s who will be 5 soon can do 6 on floor and beam.) We expect them to be able to score mid 8s at level 5 before moving up to 5. We have judges come in to score them every so often. I can see telling them they will be level 4 for two years, so they aren't constantly stressing about if they're ready yet.

 

[cbifoja]

I'll admit that I don't see a rhyme or reason to a lot of the decisions! LOL

We have big gyms that brings 30 to 40 girls for each compulsory level. But I also know that some of the girls that they let compete L5 and L6 would not have been moved up in our gym. I see some L5s throwing scary ROBHSBHS as far as height. Our coach wouldn't have allowed girls without a stronger tumbling pass to move up. She also requires a consistent kip. Our girls don't miss their kips....not saying they are perfectly straight armed every single time, but they don't have to muscle up to the bar.

That said, we also don't tend to repeat levels. I know there are gyms represented on this board who have mandatory repeat levels. For our gym, the norm is to move up each year. Every now and then we get a gymmie who skips/scores out of a level and there is usually one or fewer girls who repeat their particular level, but most of our girls do one year per level.

I agree that it is frustrating to have your first year consistently lose to a repeater but I don't really know a way to get around it. It's just seems like one of those challenges in gymnastics....like the littles getting over the vault and the talls getting those legs around during tumbling.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

levels 1-6 are beginning entry levels of fundamental gymnastics. they are beginners. parents want their kids on TEAM and COMPETING. it's not about what's the best training modalities for gymnastics. it is why our NGB has set forth this system, primarily so that we don't lose kids to soccer, softball, etc; in that we can slowly attempt to make gymnasts out of the ones' that survive and last thru the early system. therefore, they probably NEED to repeat level 3. it's no big deal.

as i have posted before, in the old system prior to 1988 we had 3 levels of gymnastics. there was a 9-11 year old age group (where there were hardly any kids in this age group that were good enough to compete). then 12-14 and finally 15&up. kids trained for several years before they entered as Class 3's and were much better athletes and much more prepared than what we have now. i blame soccer and other competing interests for losing the system we once had. a soccer uniform $25, a ball $18 and the outdoors for free. NO OVERHEAD IN MOST CASES. but then again, soccer finally figured out that they could make loads of money doing what they do. look at them now. and we're still out here trying to make gymnasts in a culture that wants it fast, cheap and done in a couple of hours.

 

[gymgal]

I agree that it is frustrating to have your first year consistently lose to a repeater but I don't really know a way to get around it. It's just seems like one of those challenges in gymnastics....like the littles getting over the vault and the talls getting those legs around during tumbling.

When dd first started competing, NC had a 2 tiered beginner level for prep-op. Requirements were the same but 1st years only competed against other first years. It worked really well. Then NC adopted the region 8 rules, whose requirements for the first two levels were much simpler and there was virtually no need for repeating at the low levels.

 

[AmandaLynn]

When dd first started competing, NC had a 2 tiered beginner level for prep-op. Requirements were the same but 1st years only competed against other first years. It worked really well. Then NC adopted the region 8 rules, whose requirements for the first two levels were much simpler and there was virtually no need for repeating at the low levels.

This was actually not that abnormal. At one point, way back when most gyms began competing at L5, the state that I grew up in had a separate Novice category for first year L5s.

 

[JessLW]

This was actually not that abnormal. At one point, way back when most gyms began competing at L5, the state that I grew up in had a separate Novice category for first year L5s.

Actually, now that I think of it, back when I was competing (let's just say somewhere between 15 and 20 years ago )there were Novice and Open categories in my state as well, at least at levels 2, 4, and 5 (back then no one competed 3). IIRC, there was only one category at the levels higher than that.

 

[new2gym]

Dunno perhaps you’re onto something with your answer. If girls NEED to do two years of level 4, as you said, then it’s not really surprising why they leave for soccer. As adults we would have trouble staying interested and motivated training those routines for two-plus years. Even more so for a group of energetic kids. Remember how long a year took when you were that age? Few kids are suited to that. Obviously those that go far in the sport are. Unfortunately there don’t seem to be enough of those kids to keep gyms in business, so they have to cater to the rest.

Personally, I would love a system with little to no competition at these young ages. It would solve so many issues. Girls could progress through levels and get skills at whatever pace they can.

To the OP who said it’s hard to lose to girls who are repeating- I would agree, except these girls placed so well all year, this wasn’t an issue in this case. Thank you again for your thoughtful replies everyone. I do appreciate the wisdom from those who have been at this longer.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

Dunno perhaps you’re onto something with your answer. If girls NEED to do two years of level 4, as you said, then it’s not really surprising why they leave for soccer. As adults we would have trouble staying interested and motivated training those routines for two-plus years. Even more so for a group of energetic kids. Remember how long a year took when you were that age? Few kids are suited to that. Obviously those that go far in the sport are. Unfortunately there don’t seem to be enough of those kids to keep gyms in business, so they have to cater to the rest.

Personally, I would love a system with little to no competition at these young ages. It would solve so many issues. Girls could progress through levels and get skills at whatever pace they can.

To the OP who said it’s hard to lose to girls who are repeating- I would agree, except these girls placed so well all year, this wasn’t an issue in this case. Thank you again for your thoughtful replies everyone. I do appreciate the wisdom from those who have been at this longer.

precisely! this is what i said as to how the system used to be prior to 1988. developing a gymnast then was akin to making a fine wine. and the wine, like the kids, lots of them! now the system creates making fast food and putting it/them on the table...NOW!

this is the contradiction we currently have. and our culture has changed in that everyone wants their kid on a "team" and "competing". the majority (on a relative scale) believe that "trophies" are an entitlement that i have paid for...and if i take my folic acid...like the good Doctor said i should do when i paid Him/Her for their services which guarantees me a healthy baby...therefore i expect my baby to be ready to "compete" on a "team" and win "trophies" right out of the womb in short order because i pay money for all this to happen.

repeating levels is as consistent as repeating skill repetitions to learn. yet NO ONE here on this site ever questions THAT anyhwere that i've read. and the longer and as many times it takes to master perfection the better because...God did NOT create all men equal contrary to what everyone thinks. if that were so, gymnastics would have 5860808676636587799687564664758979987958474635658970 gymnasts competing worldwide. or at least as many participants as soccer.

 

[new2gym]

Alright Dunno! Let me know when you will be opening your gym with this "old school" philosophy and my DD will be there!

 

[sglemon]

To answer another question, since your states is this month, I am assuming, the girls start their new levels/training in January? Our season is a little different, with competition starting in Nov/Dec and States in March/April/May. When we start a new season, it is in June. By June, we do know what level our girls are going to be at, and they will start training with their new groups that month, even though the 1st competitions, are Nov/Dec. Actually from what I understand, that is what most of the gyms in our state does. So no, it is also not unsual to know that far ahead of time, what level they will be competiting next season.

 

[cbifoja]

To answer another question, since your states is this month, I am assuming, the girls start their new levels/training in January? Our season is a little different, with competition starting in Nov/Dec and States in March/April/May. When we start a new season, it is in June. By June, we do know what level our girls are going to be at, and they will start training with their new groups that month, even though the 1st competitions, are Nov/Dec. Actually from what I understand, that is what most of the gyms in our state does. So no, it is also not unsual to know that far ahead of time, what level they will be competiting next season.

We have the same season but not always the same decision in June. Mostly we know but there are always some on the fence girls who use the summer to either "make it or break it". We don't really work "routines" in the summer as much as skills so all the girls get as much accomplished as they can. Then in early August, teams are set.

And one thing that helps is communication. Our gym is by no means perfect about it but from what it sounds like, we have fewer communication issues than a lot of gyms. After State last year, the head coach told me straight up that she would like for Bella to skip L4 but the things that she needed to fix were X, Y, and Z. Then she was given the summer to get as much of X, Y, and Z fixed as she could before the team decision was made.

So I would have been prepared either way because her coach was very clear about what had to happen. I really do think so many of our gym problems come back to communication!