WAG how DO the judges do it?

[Seeker]

Interesting. A back flick (or back handspring as you call it in the USA) is valued the same as a cartwheel? Here in the UK a back flick is valued a B while cartwheels & backward walkovers are A valued skills on beam, meaning they're easier than a BHS.

Not exactly (we don't use FIG scoring in USAG JO), but there are many different ways to fulfill a requirement. In L6, you can do a roundoff, BWO or BHS to fulfill your acro skill. The BHS isn't valued higher than the others even though many deem it a harder skill. The CW is often used in a beam dismount (CW-BT) and that again fulfills the requirement as stated. You CAN do a RO-BT or a RO-LO which is clearly harder, but it won't get you more points. The judges may favor gymnasts (in an intangible way) that do harder skills, but if you meet the level requirements, you start out of 10.

 

[Jenny]

Not exactly (we don't use FIG scoring in USAG JO), but there are many different ways to fulfill a requirement. In L6, you can do a roundoff, BWO or BHS to fulfill your acro skill. The BHS isn't valued higher than the others even though many deem it a harder skill. The CW is often used in a beam dismount (CW-BT) and that again fulfills the requirement as stated. You CAN do a RO-BT or a RO-LO which is clearly harder, but it won't get you more points. The judges may favor gymnasts (in an intangible way) that do harder skills, but if you meet the level requirements, you start out of 10.

In levels 7-10 though JO awards skills a difficulty value A,B,C etc like FIG but they are not the same as FIG. JO values some skills higher than FIG. That is what Ponyshine was getting at I think. I understand that level 6 is slightly different.

 

[Mrs. Puma]

I saw this recently at a Level 6 meet. First place beam routine went to a girl who competed a cartwheel and round-off dismount. All other girls had BWO (one had BHS) and front or back tuck dismounts. So confusing to me. That system doesn't seem to encourage the athletes to do harder skills.

Yes, we learned this quickly! My DD was the only one in her group of Xcel gold to do a BHS on beam but it was crazy wobbly (I was still super proud!) and she only got fourth. At least one girl ahead of her fell off. Obviously she's just in the lower levels, but it's good to know as she moves on. Good question!

 

[raenndrops]

Interesting. A back flick (or back handspring as you call it in the USA) is valued the same as a cartwheel? Here in the UK a back flick is valued a B while cartwheels & backward walkovers are A valued skills on beam, meaning they're easier than a BHS.

In the USA, BHS or RO on beam are B skills and BWO and Cartwheel are A Skills.
Our L6 only requires one B skill... some do the full 180º split jump or another B jump (we have one that has a BEAUTIFUL pike jump), some do a balance hold, and some do a B acro to get it.

 

[raenndrops]

In levels 7-10 though JO awards skills a difficulty value A,B,C etc like FIG but they are not the same as FIG. JO values some skills higher than FIG. That is what Ponyshine was getting at I think. I understand that level 6 is slightly different.

Level 6 uses the same A & B skills as L7+. They are required to have 5 A skills and 1 B skill on each event. They are also allowed to do one C skill on bars for B credit... but they are limited to: Clear Hip, Back Stalder, or Back Pike Circle to Handstand.

 

[gasrgoose]

the only thing difference simply between 10.0 and FIG is the difficulty. you receive bonus for practically everything you do at the elite level and then add it up. you also receive bonus in the JO system but the routines do not start from a 10.0 unless you have the bonus (difficulty, dance, etc to bring it up to a 10.0. difficulty in the Elite system is a separate line item total which is added to the artistic score. lets say, 9.0 artistic and 4.7 difficulty equals 13.7. the JO optional system has minimum requirements. if you meet the MINIMUM your start value may only be a 9.5. you'll have to do some difficulty which has bonus in order to bring it up to a 10.0.

artistic is still artistic in both systems. if your gymnastics is ugly you will receive the same deductions in both systems.

In JO (particularly level 10) are there set maximum bonuses for each event? We have a few kids who's starting beam score is 10.2 and same for vault (double twisting yurchenko) and possibly floor and bars. How high could a kid who is almost Elite or has qualified elite but not yet competed elite have a starting score, (10.?) if they competed their Elite routines?

 

[profmom]

What I don't know is how boys' JO judges do it. At least at FIG meets, there are judges who do the D score and judges who do the E score. At many JO meets, there's just one judge for the boys' events, and (usually) he has to track the skills, whether they're A-E (or more), what category they fit into, and the deductions. Unlike on the girls' side where there are limits on allowable skills at L6-9, if a new optional boy (a L8) has a D or an E rated skill, he can do it and get credit for it as a D or E. My hat's off to them!

 

[Ponyshine]

In the USA, BHS or RO on beam are B skills and BWO and Cartwheel are A Skills.
Our L6 only requires one B skill... some do the full 180º split jump or another B jump (we have one that has a BEAUTIFUL pike jump), some do a balance hold, and some do a B acro to get it.

Interesting - thanks! I like learning about the USA system because I don't know much about it. 180 degrees split jump is an A value skill here.

 

[Mrs. Puma]

Level 6 uses the same A & B skills as L7+. They are required to have 5 A skills and 1 B skill on each event. They are also allowed to do one C skill on bars for B credit... but they are limited to: Clear Hip, Back Stalder, or Back Pike Circle to Handstand.

So they can do a giant in 6, right? She's only doing them on strapbar now (she said she got one on regular bars on Wednesday, but I didn't see it! Lol) so this is probably a moot point anyway, but just curious.

 

[raenndrops]

So they can do a giant in 6, right? She's only doing them on strapbar now (she said she got one on regular bars on Wednesday, but I didn't see it! Lol) so this is probably a moot point anyway, but just curious.

Yes, they can do a Giant in L6, but a lot of gyms use the giant as the determining factor for L7... no giant = L6... giant = L7.

 

[raenndrops]

Interesting - thanks! I like learning about the USA system because I don't know much about it. 180 degrees split jump is an A value skill here.

Split Jump, 180º Straddle Jump, Pike Jump, Straight Jump 3/4, Cat Leap 1/2, Tuck 1/2, and Wolf 1/2 are all B skills.
In 2013, one of our L7 got penalized for unallowable skill when her Straight Jump 3/4 went a little more than 7/8 - they credited it as an unallowable C (Straight Jump 1/1) ... But now, ONE C dance is allowable in L7 - for B credit.

 

[Mrs. Puma]

Yes, they can do a Giant in L6, but a lot of gyms use the giant as the determining factor for L7... no giant = L6... giant = L7.

Thank you. Yes, that's seems what I've seen on here now that you say that. I would think he'd put her in 6 not 7 this fall ( assuming she'll score out of 4/5 which she's soooo close to) but we'll see! One meet at a time, right?!

 

[Deleted member D3987]

In JO (particularly level 10) are there set maximum bonuses for each event? We have a few kids who's starting beam score is 10.2 and same for vault (double twisting yurchenko) and possibly floor and bars. How high could a kid who is almost Elite or has qualified elite but not yet competed elite have a starting score, (10.?) if they competed their Elite routines?

you have to add up the difficulty of those routines at least to know what that start value is difficulty wise.

the elite level has no ceiling. BUT, i don't think it's humanly possible to get in the 17's. that would mean a 10.0 artistic score and difficulty in the 7's.

if they only had a 9.0 artistic score that would mean difficulty in the 8's. the routine would be 15 minutes long or they would fall 1/2 a dozen times. lol

sorry, left out a part. both FIG and JO have set bonus for each event.

 

[profmom]

What if Kenzo Shirai could clean up his floor execution?

 

[Deleted member D3987]

well, yes. a fall is 1 full point compared to .5 in JO. that wasn't my point though. the artistic deductions do vary between JO and FIG. my point was that ugly gymnastics will not be rewarded. unless it's vault...#ilandonmybuttondoublefrontsandtheygivemeagood scoreanywaycausetheDscoreissohigh

 

[Ponyshine]

well, yes. a fall is 1 full point compared to .5 in JO. that wasn't my point though. the artistic deductions do vary between JO and FIG. my point was that ugly gymnastics will not be rewarded. unless it's vault...#ilandonmybuttondoublefrontsandtheygivemeagood scoreanywaycausetheDscoreissohigh

Haven't they been adjusting things to favour good execution rather than people chucking vaults they can barely do and winning?

 

[Deleted member D3987]

not on vault. this past year between the girl from the Dominican and the girl from Egypt, many of were standing by waiting for something really bad to happen. and they STILL scored and medaled.

 

[Seeker]

In levels 7-10 though JO awards skills a difficulty value A,B,C etc like FIG but they are not the same as FIG. JO values some skills higher than FIG. That is what Ponyshine was getting at I think. I understand that level 6 is slightly different.

I was responding to Taximom and Paint A Melody -- PAM said she said she lacked motivation to get her BWO because it was valued the same as other skills she deemed easier. The example was specific to the scoring limitations of that level -- you meet the requiremets in a variety of ways, but SV is still out of 10.

 

[raenndrops]

In JO (particularly level 10) are there set maximum bonuses for each event? We have a few kids who's starting beam score is 10.2 and same for vault (double twisting yurchenko) and possibly floor and bars. How high could a kid who is almost Elite or has qualified elite but not yet competed elite have a starting score, (10.?) if they competed their Elite routines?

10.0 is the MAXIMUM SV in JO, even at L10.
Here is the vault chart:
https://usagym.org/PDFs/Women/Rules/J.O. Code of Points/appndx01_Level10vaultchart-2013.pdf

Level 10 Requirements: 3 A’s, 3 B’s, 2 C’s
9.50 Start Value Maximum of 0.50 Bonus
(min. of +.10 Difficulty Value & min. of +.10 Connection Value)

 

[B.Gold]

Dumb question sorry, this seems obvious. But that's per event? So the requirements for each event are the same?
-thanks....

10.0 is the MAXIMUM SV in JO, even at L10.
Here is the vault chart:
https://usagym.org/PDFs/Women/Rules/J.O. Code of Points/appndx01_Level10vaultchart-2013.pdf

Level 10 Requirements: 3 A’s, 3 B’s, 2 C’s
9.50 Start Value Maximum of 0.50 Bonus
(min. of +.10 Difficulty Value & min. of +.10 Connection Value)