MAG I want to help that little boy with amazing talent...but how?

[pumpkinpie]

Hello!

I am 17 years and I coach at my gym, because I have been training there since I was 5.
The Level6 boys at my gym are all pretty strong as their coach is really competetive and focuses on conditioning a lot.
Most of them can press into manna or have at least a decent V-Sit. They can also do straddle planches, front levers and pike handstands on p-bars.

I am training the L4 boys. Today a new boy came to our gym and joined my L4's. He is really really good, he is such an amazing tumbler and he is really flexible and his form is just AMAZING!!!! He has been a dancer and a gymnast, but wants to focus on gymnastics now. He has all the L7 skills on floor already and other events are great as well.

The only problem is his lack in strength. He can hold a sloppy V-Sit for no more than 5 secs and is far away from planches (he has a tucked one for some secs, though). I talked with the coach of L6 (then maybe L7) today. He said that if he was as strong as the others, he could join his Level after he competed L5 and L6 once.

So now it's my turn to help him!

We are training 3 days a week for 2 hours. About 30 minutes are spent on conditioning. He will then stay 30 more minutes and I will do some specific conditioning with him.

His mom asked me if he could achieve the strength skills by next season. I told her there was no way to get it that fast. I told her that if he is training 3 days a week, he will probably get the straddle planche and front lever in 1 year, the manna in 1 1/2.

I am 100% sure that he would be a great gymnast if he was stronger.

I have no idea how long it took me, but definitely longer than a year. But I have to add that the first 5 years, I did gymnastics just fo fun and didn't compete and trained not more than 3 hours a week.

I would appreciate and opinions. What do you think? Is it doable in 1 year? What should I tell the mom?

 

[gymdog]

Usually they will catch up in strength just by training. If his skills are that great he must have some natural strength, right? It's not like he's an average class kid.

 

[magmom]

I keep trying to reply but keep getting cut off. Here is what has worked for my (formerly flimsy) son...

After workout blend...
1/2 banana (frozen or not)
Handful blueberries (easier frozen if you're shooting for organic)
Bloop of Greek yogurt. (Technical measurement,7 obviously)
A little whey powder (just a very little- they are little)
Milk enough to liquefy

 

[magmom]

I keep trying to reply but keep getting cut off. Here is what has worked for my (formerly flimsy) son...

After workout blend...
1/2 banana (frozen or not)
Handful blueberries (easier frozen if you're shooting for organic)
Bloop of Greek yogurt. (Technical measurement,7 obviously)
A little whey powder (just a very little- they are little)
Milk enough to liquefy

Cut me off again! But,that's more or less all I had to say. You can't change body, but you can affect how those bodies are nourished. Nourish the gymnast, however he or she needs to grow.

 

[iwannacoach]

I have no idea how long it took me, but definitely longer than a year. But I have to add that the first 5 years, I did gymnastics just fo fun and didn't compete and trained not more than 3 hours a week.

Your past experiences can't be used to measure his strength potential and the rate his strength will increase. Part of your perception of the rate you became stronger is probably based upon when you decided to commit yourself, but you're probably including many months during which you weren't so determined. Two other factors will come into play: His age, because old boys simply can't be as strong as young men, and his genetic tendency for strength, speed, and endurance. Mot of us have one dominate trait and then less of the other two.

If he's at least 13 years old, and 15 would be better, he stands a chance of being able to do these strength elements in less than a year, as most of his gains will take place in the first 6 months. Here's a suggestion based on my own experience: Give him work to do at home, and tell him he'll determine his strength gains by how often and intensely he works them.

 

[pumpkinpie]

Usually they will catch up in strength just by training. If his skills are that great he must have some natural strength, right? It's not like he's an average class kid.

Yes you are right, but he will definitely need more if he wants to catch up as fast as possible!

 

[pumpkinpie]

Cut me off again! But,that's more or less all I had to say. You can't change body, but you can affect how those bodies are nourished. Nourish the gymnast, however he or she needs to grow.

Thank you! Yes, I will make sure he gets the right amount of protein and enough sleep!

 

[pumpkinpie]

Your past experiences can't be used to measure his strength potential and the rate his strength will increase. Part of your perception of the rate you became stronger is probably based upon when you decided to commit yourself, but you're probably including many months during which you weren't so determined. Two other factors will come into play: His age, because old boys simply can't be as strong as young men, and his genetic tendency for strength, speed, and endurance. Mot of us have one dominate trait and then less of the other two.

If he's at least 13 years old, and 15 would be better, he stands a chance of being able to do these strength elements in less than a year, as most of his gains will take place in the first 6 months. Here's a suggestion based on my own experience: Give him work to do at home, and tell him he'll determine his strength gains by how often and intensely he works them.

Thank you for your relpy.
He is 11 years old now. I asked a really experienced coach and he told me that this will take at least 2 years, but then I asked some other elite gymnasts in my gym, which told me that manna, straddle planche and front lever are quite basic things for men which could be easily achieved in some months with proper training...

Ok, so here is my plan: First of all, I will tell him and his mom I can't tell how long it takes - it takes as long as it takes!
I will have him work out additionally to training, 3 times week.
He should work on some simply strenghtening the first 3 months, like normal push-ups, planche push-ups, L-Sits, Leg Raises and Hollow Body Rocks (he can do 50 at a time, but the L6 boys do 5x60 in training!) to "prepare" his body along with good nutrition.
Then I will slowly integrate the actual skills.

Here is a list the L6 coach gave me, which he should be able to do:

All L6/L7 skills (definitely doable in 6 months with his dedication)
Strength:
V-Sit (shins to the forehead - better is manna)
straddle planche
front lever
18ft rope climb in straddle position
pike+straddle press handstand on p-bars
straddle press handstand on floor

OMG, thats gonna be hard work
But I really wanna help him. We have many boys at our gym, who don't like gymnastics, they do it because their parents force them to do so. This boy is not only loving the sport, but also has a real talent in tumbling, body tightness and flexibility. Just his strength is such a tricky part! I am always really happy if a boys want to do gymnastics, so I will do the best I can. This is going to be my first challenge as a coach.

I hope he will show some pretty good progression till next September, maybe V-Sit and a tucked planche and have his skills down in about 1 year.

As you said, all people are different and you jst can't tell how long something will take, because it depends on so many thing.

But what I have seen is that boys or girls who start serious training with a lot of conditioning, usually gain most of their strength in their first year. By then, they can do amazing things already. For more advanced stuff they need specific programming to overcome plateaus and gaining strength is not so easy anymore.

Has anyone some experience with that as well?

 

[iwannacoach]

I asked a really experienced coach and he told me that this will take at least 2 years, but then I asked some other elite gymnasts in my gym, which told me that manna, straddle planche and front lever are quite basic things for men which could be easily achieved in some months with proper training..

The experienced coach may have said that because he knows that boys begin to mature physically when they're 12-14 years old..... mentally, ha! Like that ever happens.

The manna seems doable because it's not a brute strength proposition. Much of that skill is based on flexibility and strengthening muscles most folks don't know how to use. So consider it a strategic strengthening that can be done in a 6-12 month time frame.

The straddle planche uses heads more in the direction of brute strength, but learning how to straddle wide and balancing with the widest straddle possible will really reduce the strength requirement. Come up with a strength routine that addresses his overall arm strength, and targets his wrists and gently works the muscles and tendons that moves his fingers from an open hand to a closed hand. It has to be gentle because there are tendons in the span from his fingers and palms to his forearms, and they need to be given time to build up slowly.

The last of the strength routine is to work with him to find at home objects he can use as weights while moving through the entire range of motion that places the planche in the middle (more or less). That would be done with a starting position laying on his back on a narrow bench with a noodle up the middle of his back, and then lowering the weight to a comfortable stretch (kinda into a back lever shoulder angle) and then pressing the weight with straight arms until hes just past the angle he'd use for a planche. Add another exercise that puts him at an upright angle (about 45 degrees) and repeat the pressing motion up to a vertical arm position. Do the same thing while standing.

The entire three position routine can be repeated 2-5 times as long as the weight allows him a minimum of five repetitions that he can do while mimicing the planche motion. Too heavy a weight will cause him to use body english to get through the motion, and that'll only work if you want him to end up with a squirming planche.

I've had girls make their own weights by collecting empty milk/juice jugs and filling them with enough water to challenge themselves. Your student may need more than the 7 pounds/gallon water water weighs, and that can be done by sand in the jug instead of water.

Front lever? I'll let somebody else come up with suggestions for you.

 

[pumpkinpie]

The experienced coach may have said that because he knows that boys begin to mature physically when they're 12-14 years old..... mentally, ha! Like that ever happens.

The manna seems doable because it's not a brute strength proposition. Much of that skill is based on flexibility and strengthening muscles most folks don't know how to use. So consider it a strategic strengthening that can be done in a 6-12 month time frame.

The straddle planche uses heads more in the direction of brute strength, but learning how to straddle wide and balancing with the widest straddle possible will really reduce the strength requirement. Come up with a strength routine that addresses his overall arm strength, and targets his wrists and gently works the muscles and tendons that moves his fingers from an open hand to a closed hand. It has to be gentle because there are tendons in the span from his fingers and palms to his forearms, and they need to be given time to build up slowly.

The last of the strength routine is to work with him to find at home objects he can use as weights while moving through the entire range of motion that places the planche in the middle (more or less). That would be done with a starting position laying on his back on a narrow bench with a noodle up the middle of his back, and then lowering the weight to a comfortable stretch (kinda into a back lever shoulder angle) and then pressing the weight with straight arms until hes just past the angle he'd use for a planche. Add another exercise that puts him at an upright angle (about 45 degrees) and repeat the pressing motion up to a vertical arm position. Do the same thing while standing.

The entire three position routine can be repeated 2-5 times as long as the weight allows him a minimum of five repetitions that he can do while mimicing the planche motion. Too heavy a weight will cause him to use body english to get through the motion, and that'll only work if you want him to end up with a squirming planche.

I've had girls make their own weights by collecting empty milk/juice jugs and filling them with enough water to challenge themselves. Your student may need more than the 7 pounds/gallon water water weighs, and that can be done by sand in the jug instead of water.

Front lever? I'll let somebody else come up with suggestions for you.

Thank you so much for your answer, I didn't expect that! THANKS! Now I gained a little confidence and will make him do all this stuff... we will see, maybe he gets it in a year or so! I really wish for it!

 

[emorymom]

Wouldn't the L5 coach let him come work your L4 off days with them. .. or soon?

 

[BlairBob]

If you do some tests or know these, I can write up a program based on upon the GymnasticBody/OvercomingGravity systems.

No charge or anything. Or you could buy those books/systems.

Pm me if ya want. Both have good forums though GB tends to push buying the new Foundations or Handstand or other courses by their members a lot. Its good content but expensive.

 

[pumpkinpie]

If you do some tests or know these, I can write up a program based on upon the GymnasticBody/OvercomingGravity systems.

No charge or anything. Or you could buy those books/systems.

Pm me if ya want. Both have good forums though GB tends to push buying the new Foundations or Handstand or other courses by their members a lot. Its good content but expensive.

Hey BlairBob, I just saw your answer now!

Thanks a lot for this! I just talked to one of my teammates and has the book "Overcoming Gravity by Steven Low" and he will lend it to me! Thanks for the advice!!!!!!