Level 4 Scoring Changed?

[Monsterdaddy]

Hi everyone! I'm the daddy that my team's moms have turned to for scoring questions. I know it's only level 4 but the moms are a little frustrated that we seem to have no idea how scoring is done (and I am too).

I have this scoring book and I thought I had made some progress in figuring it out. (Which made a lot of moms feel better.) But after a big meet, I am beginning to wonder if the scoring rules for level 4 have changed.

This is the reason, there is another gym with a really big reputation so I watched their routines. Frankly, I wasn't all that impressed but they scored huge! I noticed certain patterns in their routines. One in particular one stood out:

Beam - level 4 rules say only 3/4 handstand and a scale to horizontal is needed. But all of that gym's routines included a vertical handstand held for 1 sec and they also completed a scale past 45 degrees above horizontal. I thought it was odd that they went so far above and beyond but they were awarded huge scores.

Did level 4 beam scoring rules change? I checked more stuff in the book and their routines for handstand and scale are level 6 requirements!

Did I misunderstand the rules? I thought if you performed to 3/4 handstand and a scale to horizontal there would be no deductions (assuming you met the requirements). Do you get bonus points for performing beyond reqs? I didn't think that was allowed.

Nearly all the other girls at the meet (from many gyms) didn't do a vertical handstand hold or high scale and they were all pretty much way lower in scoring but appeared similar in form otherwise.

Someone suggested maybe the judges simply can't remember the different reqs for level 4 vs. 5 or 6 because it's such a low level.

The most important point here I think is the feedback I would give back to the moms. If parts of level 4 routines are actually be judged on level 6 reqs, that might not be so bad since our girls need to learn it eventually. If the judges are just screwing up, well shame on them but it would still tell us to perform higher which is OK.

 

[gymgurl]

Not a judge, not a coach, not even in america but what i would say is there form is incredible and often 3/4 is subjective and 3/4 to some may not be 3/4 to others. What i would say is because there form is probably immaculate they have minimal careless deductions. As for bonus points, there are no bonus points as such but there are bonus's for bonus skills e.g. bwo on beam in lvl 4 i don't think there is such thing in america

 

[gympanda]

Typically gyms that are scoring higher are not doing so based on one or two skills. Likely what you are seeing are less overall routine general deductions. Check out page 161-163 in the compulsory book. These deductions are likely what the difference is rather than element deductions for only two skills.

Also, the suggestion that judges can't remember the different requirements for L4 vs 5/6 is incorrect. Most judges judge L4 more than any other level, since that is the level that has the most amount of competitors. They are likely using the general deductions to separate the girls.

 

[Monsterdaddy]

Thanks for the responses.

gympanda, what is the name of the compulsory book and do you have a suggestion on where I can buy one?

I did think about form and general deductions but even adding them up didn't seem to come close to the scores some girls were receiving.

This gym seemed to know the rules very well because in bar while other girls did larger more horizontal casts, this gym instructed the girls to take tiny casts that didn't even hit 45 degrees.

Other folks commented that their bar routines looked actually lethargic compared to others but again they scored higher. So general deductions for lack of amplitude and extension were not being held against them.

 

[gym law mom]

Tell the moms there is no bonus in the compulsory levels. Bonus scoring doesn't start til L9. Sounds like this gym's beam coach is working these girls to be ready for L5 where the handstand has to be complete and held along with the leg going higher on the arabesque.

You mentioned the gym you referenced was well known---that may explain a little bit of what you saw. Also remember the judges have a little different angle to watch routines than parents in the stands. Little things like the gymnast looking tentative, bent knees, arm positions not quite right etc. can all be deductions.

What do your coaches say? My advice is put the book down and just enjoy the girls doing their best.

 

[Tumblequeensmom]

I agree 100% w/Gym Law Mom!!! Put the book away... you'll never figure it out. Some gyms train over and above the minimal requirements and as a result, those girls eventually rock optionals (if they stick around that long). There are many things that go into judging, and gymnastics is not a sport like others, where the "winner" is easily determined by who scores the most baskets, runs the fastest, jumps the longest, etc. There is definitely some subjectivity in the sport as well. The most important thing you can do is support your daughter and not focus on scores so much! Have fun w/it.

 

[CamSeawind]

Its subjective, if you go above and beyond there is bound to be some form of favoritism.

I was never good at level 4, what you noticed could have helped me.

 

[gympanda]

Thanks for the responses.

gympanda, what is the name of the compulsory book and do you have a suggestion on where I can buy one?

I wouldn't buy one, I'm sure your gym has one. It's the "Purple Book". If you really want one, you can order one from usa-gymnastics.org

BUT - here is a pdf of the table of penalties: http://www.usa-gymnastics.org/PDFs/Women/Junior Olympics/penalties_sectionrev.pdf

The page numbers I referenced are the same in here.

 

[NGL780309]

Pretty much all of the teams that score well in our area do these skills the same way. DD just switched gyms and now they are making her do a real handstand on the beam. She has to go all the way up and hold it. Her old gym was just happy with the 3/4 handstand. I've found in general that the gyms that have their girls doing these skills to the max also have all of the skills in the routine polished and pretty much done to perfection. So they may score more than a point higher because they have so few deductions on everything else.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

if you're investing this much time at level 4 me thinks you will have a drug and alcohol problem by level 10...

 

[NOG]

if you're investing this much time at level 4 me thinks you will have a drug and alcohol problem by level 10...

Too funny Dunno - that's why we love you....saying it how you see it

 

[Monsterdaddy]

Frankly I can't wait to get the hell outta level 4. Not much use in half the skills here.

BTW, I am all for above and beyond but I did notice they did the minimum in other routines, i.e. the bar I mentioned. They seem to have a pattern on focusing only on things judges overscore on.

 

[Blackie6]

I stopped trying to figure it out a long time ago. Just sit back and enjoy, I'm sure your coach knows where the deductions are being made. Sometimes it's just the little things like wobbles, bobbles and not being up on toes, straight legs, ect...

 

[Pineapple_Lump]

It is frustrating when parents complain about score bias. If you are informed enough to make that assessment, then why don't you get a judging qualification and make yourself useful at competitions.

 

[gymgurl]

An interesting my coach (who is also a judge) said was that it doesn't particularly matter what the scores are as long as the best athlete wins and if you go above and beyond well you have a "better" athlete

 

[gymdog]

BTW, I am all for above and beyond but I did notice they did the minimum in other routines, i.e. the bar I mentioned. They seem to have a pattern on focusing only on things judges overscore on.

The judges aren't overscoring on anything. I teach a full handstand in L4 because I think a 3/4 handstand is unnecessary at that level. I also think a 3/4 handstand is not conducive to balance and alignment in a lot of cases. It's okay for preteamer to get the feel of the skill but by L4 they should be able to more or less do a handstand on beam.

The routines with a full handstands, if they are scoring better, are better routines overall due to better control and better preparation. There is a correlation between being able to do this skill better and being able to do a better routine overall.

 

[dancengym]

Monsterdaddy, when my DD was L4 (and even L5) I was intrigued by the scoring system and like you tried to figure it out. My dd's coach often made her do "extra" skills and was told she would score higher. And despite all the other extra's, she still could not get past a 9.5 (once a 9.65 on beam but the judges were throwing out high scores at that meet). But at her L5 states, there was this young gymnast that scored a 39.550 AA. Most her routines were 9.9s. Her routines were very basic compared to all the other extras my dd did (except beam where she had a huge wobble and scored a 9.75).

One thing I found was that this young gymnast was solid in all her routine. She only had one big wobble on the beam and she was solid and sure footed on her entire floor routiine (9.9). Because of my dd's extras, she wobbled more and her balance was thrown off a couple of times. Her floor was, in my opinion prettier, with a much better split leap, split, kicks and coming of a tumbling pass with a beautiful scale but she was off balance on a couple spots. So, her score was a lot lower. I think little wobbles that we may not notice or slight off balance accounts for more deductions than we think. Also don't forget the legs and the toes.

 

[bogwoppit]

There is an expression that is used here often, "tenthed to death". Some kids just get so many little deductions that they add up to lower scores. MOst of these tenths are things that parents just do not notice. I have become pretty good over the years at working out where the deducations came from, funny thng is I really don't care anymore, she trains hard, she has fun and she is out there doing her thing. THat is really all that counts.

Gym is such a long term sport that trying to second guess the judeges will turn meets into a stress filled nightmare. I don't care what they think anymore because my childs success in the sport isn't defined by what the judges think. Of cousre I do not have my eye on college or Elite gym, but considering 70% of L4's won't ever get to optionals, most parents should chill a bit.

 

[LizzieLac]

Our gym teaches the fully vertical handstand as well. It makes a better gymnast in the long run, but it doesn't get them any "bonus" points in level 4.

Also, Bog makes agreat point. There are many little things that parents don't/can't notice because they are not trained judges, but they are listed in the code of points. For me, since I will never know all of the little tenths (and sometimes .05!), I look to see if my DD overall looks solid, did she fix something she was inconsistent with, and does she look like she is making progress as a gymnast. I try not to get too focused on any one score, because there is nothing I can do about it and it is the nature of the sport.

Case in point, first meet DD got a 9.35 on floor and this weekend got 8.65 - they looked exactly the same to me!!!

 

[MeetDirector]

Monsterdaddy -

I understand that you are trying to figure out this seemingly complicated system of judging, but from one dad to another, don't bother. As others have said, focus on the fun factor and the improvement from one meet to another. The judges at the compulsory level are looking for specific things; just wait until you get to the optional level - your head will be spinning if you try to dissect every routine and figure out the deductions as well as the start values. If you really want to get some insight into the judging side of things, volunteer to work a meet that your gym hosts and be a judge's assistant. I had the pleasure of sitting next to some really outstanding regional judges last year and came away with a completely different perspective of things. The judges are not out to be underhanded or sneaky; they judge what they see (and see it in split seconds by the way) and then amazingly get very close to each other at the end of a routine. The judges can see the littlest of things and those things add up quickly.

Good luck and enjoy the ride!