Silly Questions from a L8 Mom

[LMV]

Bear with me I have a few questions....

*I had a very interesting conversation with another mom while watching part of our daughters' practice. I guess I'd rather get some reality based answers from other parents to help me identify if I do need to bring any of this up with her coaches or if I should just take a step back from the drama.*

1.)For L8 if they need 4 A's and 4 B's if they have a routine with extra B's and some dance C's do they just count the C's as B's and some of the B's as A's or is the gymnast penalized because they do not have the 4 A's?
2.)Is a routine with 11 elements [1 is a dismount] too long?
3.)If a gymnast puts an unallowable element [ie C tumbling on Beam or a C move on bars] into a routine but the routine still meets other requirements including special requirements and the skills are done well are they likely to get other deductions besides the 0.5 deduction for the unallowable element? Does this practice just annoy the judges? Is it considered poor sportsmanship?
4.)Are frivolous dance elements in routines likely to result in overall composition deductions? Is there really enough room that a floor routine that meets all requirements, is performed technically well [stuck landings, good amplitude, and shape, straight lines etc], and with a smile [because she really likes this routine and the silly stuff makes it hers] would really be unlikely to score above an 8.0 due to artistry and composition deductions if the judges don't happen to like her silly dance additions?
5.)Is there any reason why a tidy French Braid would take away from presentation more than another hair style?
6.)Is make up really required [especially for a prepubescent ten year old]?

 

[Billy]

Bear with me I have a few questions....

*I had a very interesting conversation with another mom while watching part of our daughters' practice. I guess I'd rather get some reality based answers from other parents to help me identify if I do need to bring any of this up with her coaches or if I should just take a step back from the drama.*

1.)For L8 if they need 4 A's and 4 B's if they have a routine with extra B's and some dance C's do they just count the C's as B's and some of the B's as A's or is the gymnast penalized because they do not have the 4 A's?
2.)Is a routine with 11 elements [1 is a dismount] too long?
3.)If a gymnast puts an unallowable element [ie C tumbling on Beam or a C move on bars] into a routine but the routine still meets other requirements including special requirements and the skills are done well are they likely to get other deductions besides the 0.5 deduction for the unallowable element? Does this practice just annoy the judges? Is it considered poor sportsmanship?
4.)Are frivolous dance elements in routines likely to result in overall composition deductions? Is there really enough room that a floor routine that meets all requirements, is performed technically well [stuck landings, good amplitude, and shape, straight lines etc], and with a smile [because she really likes this routine and the silly stuff makes it hers] would really be unlikely to score above an 8.0 due to artistry and composition deductions if the judges don't happen to like her silly dance additions?
5.)Is there any reason why a tidy French Braid would take away from presentation more than another hair style?
6.)Is make up really required [especially for a prepubescent ten year old]?

I can't answer all your questions but I'll try some.

1) Yes, any allowable C elements would just be counted as Bs and any extra Bs would be counted as As. Boo's coach has 5 B elements in both her floor and beam routines just in case anything gets devalued to an A. That way she's sure to have enough of both.

2) 11 elements seems long to me but that's really up to her coaches. I think Boo's routines have 9 elements (I've never really counted, though).

5) I don't think judges would deduct based on hair (did you get a look at some of the messy hair at championships this year?? ) unless it was really all in her face or something.

6) No, make up is not required, at least not by USAG.

 

[LMV]

Thanks Shawn,

It is her beam routine that is 11 elements [and maybe a little longer because she does a HS turn and then a straddle/press with splits that I think doesn't really count but she likes it---it's probably her favorite part besides her series].

Good luck to your daughter as well

 

[Aussie_coach]

Competitively putting in too much is usually a mistake, especially on beam. Every extra thing she does has the potential for deduction. Shorter routines score higher. get on the beam fulfill the requirements and get off the beam. Some gyms may be putting in other elements in order to train them for the future but a good gym can make sure these elements are trained well without putting them in the routine.

Make up is definitely not required, no one really competes with make up in Australia.

A french braid is a great hair style. There is no deduction for a hairstyle unless it is in the face and the gymnast is having to adjust her hair while competing.

Judges can only take a very, very small deduction if the dance moves are not aesthetically pleasing. It certainly would not account for a 2.0 deduction.

 

[gympanda]

I think most of your questions have been answered, but I'll give my point of view on some of them.

3.)If a gymnast puts an unallowable element [ie C tumbling on Beam or a C move on bars] into a routine but the routine still meets other requirements including special requirements and the skills are done well are they likely to get other deductions besides the 0.5 deduction for the unallowable element? No, if the unallowable C is not meant to be a special requirement or a counting element, the only deduction is the unallowable element deduction of .5. But, we are also able to take execution deductions. Does this practice just annoy the judges? Personally, it doesn't annoy me, I don't really get to have those types of feelings during routines. I'm looking for what I'm supposed to be looking for. I won't take composition deductions specifically for unallowable Cs, but the judges essentially pretend that skill didn't happen. So, say its a back tuck on beam and the series is a cartwheel - roundoff or a backwalkover backhandspring. I'll still take composition for acro not up to the competitive level, because the compeitive level at the state meet is typically two flight skills connected at L8. Hopefully this makes sense. Is it considered poor sportsmanship? I wouldn't consider it poor sportsmanship. I would question the coaching. I always think its either a kid they are planning to move up during the season or a coach that doesn't know the rules. Believe it or not, usually its the second one.

4.)Are frivolous dance elements in routines likely to result in overall composition deductions? No. Frivolous dance elements (which I'm not sure if you are meaning an extra cat leap or the worm) likely won't effect composition, unless its adding a third straddle or tuck/wolf shaped skill, then there is a flat composition deduction. They could however effect artistry, if they don't fit the style of the routine, or are done poorly there are available deductions for that. Is there really enough room that a floor routine that meets all requirements, is performed technically well [stuck landings, good amplitude, and shape, straight lines etc], and with a smile [because she really likes this routine and the silly stuff makes it hers] would really be unlikely to score above an 8.0 due to artistry and composition deductions if the judges don't happen to like her silly dance additions? We don't get to decide if we "like" silly dance additions. We are looking for: Originality/creativity of choreogrphy (up to .1); Quality of movement reflects personal style (up to .1); Quality of expression (up to .1); Missing synchronization of movement and musical beat (up to .3); Poor relationship of music and movement throughout (up to .2). So, all together we have .8 we can deduct for stuff other than SRs, elements, and composition. That does NOT include dynamics, rhythm and foot position on non value part connections. So, if her silly dance moves are taking away from the routine, there would likely be a deduction. If the silly dance moves are not done technically correct, there would definitely be a deduction. But, if a kid has fun music and chooses to do the worm during her routine and does it technically well, there isn't a deduction. I might cringe on the inside, but I have no tool to deduct just because a dance skill is silly or even makes me embarrased for the kid. (We see this A LOT in High School.)

6.)Is make up really required [especially for a prepubescent ten year old]? I always find make-up on young kids creepy. Definitely doesn't change my score either way though.

 

[flipper's fan]

Let me take a crack at the non technical stuff, just from what I've learned around the gym. Make-up is frowned upon in our region, and coaches at the two gyms where my DD has competed do not allow it.

It seems to me that routines by the younger girls seem to score well when they use Disney music or cartoon themes. I doubt that any judges would tell you that it is true, but it appears that cute and silly works well with good solid skills for the younger gymnasts. (This seems to conincide with Gympanda's response about the movement reflects personal style and relationship of music and movement))

Another observation: "team hairstyles" seem very popular with large compulsory teams but by level 7 and 8 most of the girls seem to wear simpler hairstyles, ponytails or braids or buns, not too many ribbons or curls or "team " styles.

Another observation about dance elements- in our region it seems that tumbling gets more emphasis than in the other region where we attend competitions where it seems like dance gets more attention. This is reflected in both the kinds of routines we see from the girls in each state, as well as the scores the girls appear to get.

These are just some observations from a person who has attended many competitions. Maybe you should ask this question on the judges' board and see what you get.

 

[Billy]

the series is a cartwheel - roundoff or a backwalkover backhandspring. I'll still take composition for acro not up to the competitive level, because the compeitive level at the state meet is typically two flight skills connected at L8.

I'm curious about this. I thought the BWO-BHS series was perfectly acceptable at L8. Why would it not be up to the competitive level? Is that something that the judges just expect to see and take a deduction if they don't? I don't understand how that could be fair since the composition requirements for L8 don't call for a two-flight series.

 

[gymdog]

I'm curious about this. I thought the BWO-BHS series was perfectly acceptable at L8. Why would it not be up to the competitive level? Is that something that the judges just expect to see and take a deduction if they don't? I don't understand how that could be fair since the composition requirements for L8 don't call for a two-flight series.

It is acceptable in terms of the requirements. But there is a deduction for a routine being "not up to the competitive level" which basically means regardless of if the routine fulfilled the requirements. Otherwise there would be no way to distinguish between routines with well done easier acro (BWO BHS) and well done harder acro (BHS BHS). It's a compositional deduction. It's not a huge deduction. In some states it probably wouldn't be taken in this specific instance. For example in my state, I wouldn't consider the competitive level at L8 to be BHS BHS on beam.

 

[Billy]

It is acceptable in terms of the requirements. But there is a deduction for a routine being "not up to the competitive level" which basically means regardless of if the routine fulfilled the requirements. Otherwise there would be no way to distinguish between routines with well done easier acro (BWO BHS) and well done harder acro (BHS BHS). It's a compositional deduction. It's not a huge deduction. In some states it probably wouldn't be taken in this specific instance. For example in my state, I wouldn't consider the competitive level at L8 to be BHS BHS on beam.

That makes sense. I guess I just didn't think of it because at L9 and L10 they do the whole bonus thing to account for that. (At least that's what I thought it was for.) I wonder if they take that deduction in our state. Also, how much is that deduction?

 

[Granny Smith]

I thought composition deduction was only .1, but definitely not more than .2.

 

[gymdog]

That makes sense. I guess I just didn't think of it because at L9 and L10 they do the whole bonus thing to account for that. (At least that's what I thought it was for.) I wonder if they take that deduction in our state. Also, how much is that deduction?

Hmmm, a judge would have answer, not sure off the top of my head, it's not very big.

In L9/10 you could still have a routine that starts from a 10 without being up to the level really. If most of the bonus came from dance moves (this would be harder in L10 because of needing to get the D skill for difficulty to get bonus) for example. And at bigger L10 meets like a 10/Open session or JO Nats, then I could think of examples of 10 SV routines that wouldn't be very difficult. For example bar routines not hitting handstand on a release move (no D releases), no same bar catch, etc.

There are other compositional deductions, another common one is lacking fwd/side/bwd (any of the three) on beam (.1 each). Many are missing a forward or side acro skill.

 

[gympanda]

The up to the level composition deduction is only up to .2. We have been told at clinics that the "level" we are to compare against is what we would see at state meet. In our state we would see two flight skills connected on beam at state meet, therefor, we would take a .1 deduction for a flight series with a non-flight element. It is not a big deduction, and the easier flight series done cleaner will still score better than the harder series with major form deductions.

Like gymdog says, there are a bunch of other composition deductions, but this particular one only has an up to .2 deduction. Most composition deductions are small, they can just really add up, depending on the routine.

 

[LMV]

Thank you to everyone who replied. To clarify a few things:
-Her beam series is BHS-BHS-BT and she really wants the BT. She was originally told no because it was a C then she was told that she could have it back if she really wanted and was doing everything else so well that she would still score well with the deduction. [It does probably put her out of the running for a beam award and perhaps an AA award but she says she doesn't care she wants to do it.]
-I believe she also has an illegal release in her bar routine that may be getting removed once she really starts competing.
-We do not want her to move to L9 at age 10 and I'm not sure she is really ready for L9 even if she probably does have most or maybe all of the skills.
-Her floor music was designed then recorded specifically for her by my husband and our oldest daughter. It has a lot of jazz syncopation and some improv that the girls specifically worked out to work for the Snoopy dance. Her coach was originally kind of like umm what? But this is symbolic to her and therefore important. I personally think it's cute and I am touched by the way the girls worked together on this. It seems to fit with her tumbling and leap series. It is a very upbeat routine and she has a huge smile. I think the routine suits her and I think from what has been described of the negotiable 0.8 points that her routine should do well there.
-I'm glad people agree about the makeup. We wouldn't let her wear makeup in another setting so I don't see why gymnastics is really different. The mom I was talking to apparently pays someone to do her daughter's hair and make up the morning of meets and was insistent that it was absolutely necessary. She likes french braids and they seem to hold well in her hair for practice. I think for the first meet I will braid it while wet then blow dry it in the braid and maybe hair spray down any wisps and she should be fine. [I've done this for our oldest daughter before equestrian events and it holds and still looks nice at the end of the day even with a riding helmet being taken off and on.]

 

[gym law mom]

Just curious as to what her bar release is that may be removed? The bail(aka shootover and overshoot) and straddle back are both ok at L8 although you don't see them that much. Now, she couldn't do a bail and a pirouette without a penalty.

I respect her for wanting to do a tough series on beam and not caring about a deduction. Looks as though she could easily take out the BT if she finds its pulling her score down to a point where she's not qualifying for states.

GL this season.

 

[gymdog]

Now, she couldn't do a bail and a pirouette without a penalty.

It would be fine to do both these elements. I suppose you couldn't do a pirouette into a shootover handstand, but otherwise there's nothing that says you can't do a pirouette if you do a shootover

 

[Optionals United]

Is a pirouette a C and and a Bail a C,because in level 8 bars you are only alowed one C that counts as a B if I am corect. Also I dont thing you can do a bail to hs in level 8,it had to be below.

 

[gymdog]

Well the pirouette is an allowable C. Bail should be a B because if it gets C credit it's not going to count at all (not an allowable C, wouldn't count as a value part). I don't recall that you can only count one allowable C (pirouette, stalder/toe on/clear hip handstand) as a B, but I'm pretty sure that can't be true, as it would make it practically impossible to construct a L8 routine (seeing as the circling skills to handstand are a C) and 75% of the L8 routines I see would be getting a deduction.

 

[Optionals United]

Thank you for clearing that up gymdog!

 

[LMV]

Just curious as to what her bar release is that may be removed? The bail(aka shootover and overshoot) and straddle back are both ok at L8 although you don't see them that much. Now, she couldn't do a bail and a pirouette without a penalty.

I respect her for wanting to do a tough series on beam and not caring about a deduction. Looks as though she could easily take out the BT if she finds its pulling her score down to a point where she's not qualifying for states.

GL this season.

She has a blind change in her bar routine at the moment but maybe that is meant to be pulled when they start competing. He has had her working her new skills into the routine because he wants her to not just have the skill but have it connected into a series---does that make sense? Maybe I don't fully understand. I probably don't, this whole jumping into optionals can be a bit hard on parents I think.

 

[gymcoach34]

If the kid has all the L9 skills you mentioned-why not have her compete L9? If she wants to do the skills you mentioned-she should compete L9, instead of competing L8 and taking the deductions. Makes no sense-if she's young have her do 2 years of 9, rather than 2 years of 8 with really low scores (when she is capable of L9 skills).