WAG Teams Praying before/during meets

[e'smum]

You might listen out of curiosity once, twice, or even a handful of times. If it was all the time, everyday even, for years and years and years.. and then combined with mocking and belittling of what you actually believe sprinkled in.. I would wager that you’d get tired of it. Really tired of it.

and this is why i don't think it should be at a child's sporting event that is not church based....

i'm sorry you have had to deal with that.

 

[gymgal]

You might listen out of curiosity once, twice, or even a handful of times. If it was all the time, everyday even, for years and years and years.. and then combined with mocking and belittling of what you actually believe sprinkled in.. I would wager that you’d get tired of it. Really tired of it.

the mocking and belittling would really bug me and I would move the child if it was occurring, but I would be fine with a daily prayer. For example, I would have no problem placing my children in a religious school that had the same values as our family even though we are not religious. We routinely talk about various religions in our house, how they emerged in the world, what they stand for, etc. I want my children to have this information so that they can decide for themselves if they want to pursue a faith as they mature. My beliefs are my own and I want them to decide for themselves.

 

[bookworm]

I have heard this is--or was--fairly common among SEC teams. In a 2010 interview, Kat Ding (Georgia) specifically mentioned that it made the less-religious girls on the team uncomfortable, and that they felt proselytized to in a situation where they didn't feel comfortable asking their teammates to stop. The interview itself is gone now--after it became controversial, she requested it be taken down--or I'd link. I don't know if this is still a touchy point there or not.

We did an unofficial at Georgia years back (in 2010) and during our tour of the facilities, there was a wall that the team gymnasts wrote religious verses or phrases on with a sharpie ...and it was covered. It seemed really "in your face" for our tastes , and our family went to Catholic school from K-12 (and my son to a Catholic college) so we're not anti-religion. The coach (former coach now) pointed out that "most of the team did participate in this but gymnasts like Kat Ding choose not to"....basically saying that everyone did but her.

 

[reluctant]

We did an unofficial at Georgia years back (in 2010) and during our tour of the facilities, there was a wall that the team gymnasts wrote religious verses or phrases on with a sharpie ...and it was covered. It seemed really "in your face" for our tastes , and our family went to Catholic school from K-12 (and my son to a Catholic college) so we're not anti-religion. The coach (former coach now) pointed out that "most of the team did participate in this but gymnasts like Kat Ding choose not to"....basically saying that everyone did but her.

Barf. Let's just call her out for not participating. This is exactly why none of this stuff should go on. And Catholics are nothing compared to southern evangelicals in terms of putting religion in your face. Bear in mind that UGA is a PUBLIC SCHOOL. Grr...

 

[bookworm]

Barf. Let's just call her out for not participating. This is exactly why none of this stuff should go on. And Catholics are nothing compared to southern evangelicals in terms of putting religion in your face. Bear in mind that UGA is a PUBLIC SCHOOL. Grr...

That's what caught us off guard, because UGA is a public school. The coach made a point of saying that participation in the prayer and inspirational quote graffiti on the walls was "all voluntary and no one was penalized for not participating"... and I suppose if you have Kat Ding's skills on bars you can be pretty confident in keeping your line up spot but if I was a more mediocre gymnast, it would give me cause for concern...

 

[z2akids]

Nost of the meets we attend start with the National Anthem before the first session of the day and then mention at the start of the rest thsat it was done in the AM. I have not attended a meet with a prayer or moment of silence. I think I would find it unusual regardless of the faith, but would sit quietly through it. I would tend to wonder if including prayer affects the number of gyms who attend. But, the meets are run by private businesses and, if they want to include prayer, more power to them. I would guess that the meet director recognizes that doing so could affect their bottom line.

 

[rjb123]

That's what caught us off guard, because UGA is a public school. The coach made a point of saying that participation in the prayer and inspirational quote graffiti on the walls was "all voluntary and no one was penalized for not participating"... and I suppose if you have Kat Ding's skills on bars you can be pretty confident in keeping your line up spot but if I was a more mediocre gymnast, it would give me cause for concern...

So question- what if those girls WANTED and chose a Bible verse for their quote? That is prohibited? If you were ONLY allowed to put a religious "quote" on the wall, I can see that it would be an issue, but if it was ANY kind of quote and some (or even a majority) WANTED to use a Bible verse, why is that an issue? I don't know if the girls at Georgia could just whatever for the graffiti wall, but just thinking about this in general.

 

[Midwestmommy]

I think it’s inappropriate unless it’s an identified Christian team, meet and school. I am Christian but I am tired of other Christians shoving their religion in others’ faces. Thinly veiled intolerance is just weaponizing Christian messages into hate and claiming it’s “love.” As a Christian this embarrasses me. And despite some really conservative school like Patrick Henry who force students to repeat inaccurate statements such as “we were founded as a Christian nation” it’s not true.

Many of our founders or their ancestors came from countries where religions vying for power and money claimed to be the “true religion” and violently persecuted those who werent Catholic or Presbyterian or Anglican depending on what church was in power over many centuries. Our founders recognized that periods of religious tolerence were more peaceful, and religious tolerence although not universal among our founders, was the value that prevailed. About a third were “Christian,” a third diests, and a third we’ll call them skeptics. We are a nation of religious tolerance, not a Christian nation, and I don’t want people shoving their religion in my Jewish friends’ faces at sporting events. Praying quietly to or among themselves of course is Ok any time and anywhere, for all faiths, I respect that.

 

[profmom]

Just because you legally CAN do something doesn't mean that you should. It's often hard to distinguish when something crosses the line between some folks sharing their religious beliefs with each other into creating a culture in which it is socially expected to participate in and express allegiance to one religious tradition. I think that sort of thing can work beautifully if done in a diverse environment where it's an opportunity for cross-cultural sharing and the expression of nonreligious belief, but if it's done in an environment where something like 70% are Protestant evangelicals and an additional 10-15% are another variety of Christian, you can see how it's going to turn pretty uncomfortable for the handful of "others" pretty quickly.

I think it is rather hard for those of you who are weakly attached Christians to understand what it's like to be a member of a minority religion in the US. A lot of people in the US declare themselves to be "not religious," but celebrate Christmas and Easter and press to include Christianity in the public sphere even if they don't quite recognize that they are doing it. "Why aren't the kids singing the traditional carols I love at the school concerts?" "Why do the kids have that random day off school in the middle of the week in September? It's such a pain!" My kids were pretty disappointed last year when the junior high's annual international food potluck was scheduled on the same night as first seder. I opted not to write in and complain. I can't and won't do it every time, as I don't want to be perceived as that parent who's always griping about it, and I felt that I'd spent that card for the year by writing to teachers to complain about the double homework load assigned to make up for the "day off" the kids got for Yom Kippur, when MY offspring went through a 25-hour fast and spent almost all of their waking hours in shul.

I was at a meeting a few days ago with a fellow member of our religious school board, and she told me a story about her adult daughter, who lives in a small apartment in NYC. A somewhat older person in a position of authority over this young woman was distressed to hear that she didn't have a Christmas tree and offered her several alternatives, including trying to give her a variety of small trees. The daughter finally got it through to her that she does not celebrate Christmas, but had to get close to the point of rudeness before the older person would finally let it go.

 

[suebee]

I do wonder, though, if people would feel the same if it were a prayer led or alluding to a faith that wasn’t in the majority. I suspect we’d never see it, and if it happened I suspect that meet would rapidly lose participants. It is this part that bothers me most - the “live and let live” mentality that only seems to apply for the majority.

It's often hard to distinguish when something crosses the line between some folks sharing their religious beliefs with each other into creating a culture in which it is socially expected to participate in and express allegiance to one religious tradition. I think that sort of thing can work beautifully if done in a diverse environment where it's an opportunity for cross-cultural sharing and the expression of nonreligious belief, but if it's done in an environment where something like 70% are Protestant evangelicals and an additional 10-15% are another variety of Christian, you can see how it's going to turn pretty uncomfortable for the handful of "others" pretty quickly.

I think it is rather hard for those of you who are weakly attached Christians to understand what it's like to be a member of a minority religion in the US. A lot of people in the US declare themselves to be "not religious," but celebrate Christmas and Easter and press to include Christianity in the public sphere even if they don't quite recognize that they are doing it. "

I completely agree with both of these.

One of my kids has a close friend who moved to the US from a country whose majority religion is not Christianity. The friend practices the majority religion from the country of origin. The friend is struggling with out how much Christianity is a part of secular American culture, and how difficult it is to be a religious minority in America with rituals and customs that many Americans are completely unfamiliar with.

It is very hard for most people who are not in the minority to understand and appreciate how difficult it really is to be in the minority.

 

[Geoffrey Taucer]

It's not the norm, but some teams do it.

I wouldn't coach at a gym that had any sort of organized team prayer.

 

[CoachAlex]

As a gymnast I competed for a YMCA - the only time we ever were led in a prayer was at the opening cermonies of our national championship meet, but never for any other meet - we had girls of all faiths on our team - it was like 1 minute of one meet - no one cared either way.

I have never seen that before a meet as a coach, however, if I had a group of girls on my team who wanted to pray together before a meet that would be fine with me as long as it was their decision and as long as they were ok with girls not participating.

At the same time, most religions pray to someone - so perhaps that team that is huddled together in prayer before a meet isn’t all praying to the same higher being. Maybe they are praying, or maybe just taking a moment to focus on the meet at hand.

I’m not religious, but it wouldn’t offend me if a teammate or competitor was and wanted to pray before a meet.

Maybe if we weren’t so quick to jump to conclusions or to judge actions we don’t have the whole story behind we would be a lot happier and probably more open-minded.

 

[John]

As a gymnast I competed for a YMCA - the only time we ever were led in a prayer was at the opening cermonies of our national championship meet, but never for any other meet - we had girls of all faiths on our team - it was like 1 minute of one meet - no one cared either way.

I have never seen that before a meet as a coach, however, if I had a group of girls on my team who wanted to pray together before a meet that would be fine with me as long as it was their decision and as long as they were ok with girls not participating.

At the same time, most religions pray to someone - so perhaps that team that is huddled together in prayer before a meet isn’t all praying to the same higher being. Maybe they are praying, or maybe just taking a moment to focus on the meet at hand.

I’m not religious, but it wouldn’t offend me if a teammate or competitor was and wanted to pray before a meet.

Maybe if we weren’t so quick to jump to conclusions or to judge actions we don’t have the whole story behind we would be a lot happier and probably more open-minded.

@CoachAlex Bingo.

This is the exact thing that CB has taught me. I am so happy to hear and consume everyone's differing opinion. Sometimes members to light a fire in me, but over time I consume those points of view as well. I'll call it growth.

 

[TumbleTimes4]

Faith is personal to many, but to others it is interwoven into every detail of their lives. I think for the Christian gyms and meet directors who have verses on their walls and pray before meets, it is done from a personal place of conviction that naturally flows into every area of their life. I am sure that they know that praying before a meet could cost them gyms not coming back, but they have considered that and made that choice anyway. The beautiful thing about our country is that we are free to choose what meets we pay for and what gyms we pay for. It’s their right as a business to make that choice and your right as a consumer to make that choice.

I am a Christian and my faith influences all aspects and decisions of my life. My faith requires me that I love and treat others with respect and dignity, regardless of their personal beliefs. Do all Christians excel in this, obviously not, but in our family we do our best to show kindness and respect to all and we are teaching our children the same. I believe that everyone has a right to choose what they believe, and I’m so thankful for those that fought and died so that we can all have that right.

With all of that being said, I can very much understand how prayer before a meet could make those not of faith uncomfortable or could offend someone. I am sensitive to that. But there are many things in culture or other beliefs that I find uncomfortable or offensive that I still have to be exposed too that others may not. We are always going to encounter that in life. There’s simply no way around it. When that happens, we use it as a learning opportunity to explain our beliefs to our children, why it may be uncomfortable or offensive, and teach them how to handle it in a way that is still respectful of others. Ultimately it’s usually not harmful to them.

My personal belief is that a public prayer that seeks safety for our gymnasts, even ones with evangelistic undertones, are not harmful to anyone listening. I like that my DD’s coach sometimes prays with the girls before they start their meet. Even if they aren’t believers, it’s a positive message being spoken over them: “help them to do their best and please prevent any injuries from occurring.” It’s a message that we all as parents agree on and want, whether it’s expressed through prayer or just as positive thoughts. Even if it makes some uncomfortable, it’s not harmful.

There is enough negativity in this sport in regards to verbal and mental abuse, as we have seen play out recently. Some of us have had or have our kids in gyms where we question “where is the line?” in regards to verbal choices made by coaches. I am not judging those decisions by any means, they are very difficult decisions to make. I am just a little surprised that a coach who prays for safety before a meet is an immediate deal breaker for some, but a coach who flirts with the verbal abuse line isn’t.

Everyone has different opinions and I think it’s great that everyone has been respectful on this board of the various opinions. And thankfully we live in country where gymnasts, parents, coaches, and meet directors all how the freedom to choose how to run their meets and which meets to attend and support.

 

[Mrs. Puma]

I have never seen prayer at any of the meets we’ve been to, including ones at YMCAs and JCCs. I don’t believe it has a place in a sporting event, but I do welcome any good vibes thrown my way. I think a super general “keep everyone safe” prayer, isn’t a terrible thing and I personally wouldn’t make a big deal about it, but I think people need to remember that it can make others feel uncomfortable and even looked down on for not being a part of whatever religion happens to be praying.

My personal belief is that a public prayer that seeks safety for our gymnasts, even ones with evangelistic undertones, are not harmful to anyone listening.

I agree that “Harmful” is a bit strong of a word, but evangelistic undertones in my opinion are not ok at all in a sporting event. That absolutely makes many people feel uncomfortable and looked down upon. I am not saying you are this way @TumbleTimes4 , because it sounds like you have a great attitude about your religion and I appreciate your open mindedness about people having different opinions and being respectful, but I do think many people are quick to defend their religion being a part of an event, but would not feel comfortable if it was a different religion. (I think @MILgymFAM said something like this above). Many Christians would be very uncomfortable if the gymnastics meet had Islamic prayer and evangelical undertones. Which is why in my opinion it’s best to keep prayer out of it completely. But again, I do respect the opinions of others and this nice discussion!

 

[profmom]

I am not quite sure if those of you who are defending public prayer are asking for an explanation for why it is troublesome or not. If you are just asserting that you can't understand why it might be troublesome, please disregard what follows. I am just trying to explain from the perspective of someone who practices a minority religion (which to me is emphatically a practice rather than a faith). I hope you will take this in the spirit in which I mean it, which is not as an attack on anyone but rather just an attempt to get you all to see where we are coming from.

Whether or not you believe that public prayer should be unobjectionable is not the point. You are certainly free to judge the objections unreasonable, as many do, but the objections themselves are there and cannot be denied.

I understand completely that many Christians who engage in public prayer do so out of their love for their beautiful system of beliefs and their charity toward their fellow human beings. I am always grateful to accept the kind wishes of my Christian friends. I just don't like it when my kids are pressed to participate in something that is not reflective of their religious affiliation, or when things happen that reveal an underlying assumption that everyone is at least vaguely Christian. Please try to understand that to a committed Jew, being asked to lift up a prayer to Jesus is like asking you Christians to pray to St. Thomas or St. Augustine as a god, which I presume would be deeply offensive. Jews throughout the centuries have chosen to fight and die rather than disavow our G-d by participating in prayers that violate the fundamental unity of G-d as we understand G-d. If a meet begins with an injunction to stand and pray or stand and join in a moment of whatever, that's asking us to do something that we are forbidden to do. And to quote the good old Hebrew National slogan, we answer to a higher authority! You can say that the intent is not to encourage or coerce participation, but the effect nonetheless is to do so, and the effect is what matters, since intent can be ambiguous.

And I'm pushing this not so much for myself, because I'm a member of a very recognizable and relatively powerful religious minority. We Jews get the days off school in some places even if we have to raise a stink to do it, and most people know at least a few of us. It is orders of magnitude harder for my Muslim, Hindu, and Sikh friends who live in areas without large communities. Some of the things I've heard from members of those communities genuinely distress and shock me. I may also be a little sensitive on this topic because last week right here in my lovely blue state with our lovely high school with all of its slogans about toleration and diversity and respect, my son experienced anti-Semitism (along with a nice dollop of gay-baiting simultaneously). He opted not to "make a big deal about it" and handled it well himself by his account, but there it is.

 

[RTT2]

profmom, I'm very sorry to hear your son went through that.

 

[Mrs. Puma]

profmom, I'm very sorry to hear your son went through that.

I am also sorry he had to deal with this. It makes me sad that this sort of behavior still exists in 2018. We’ve come a long way, but clearly still have a long way to go.

 

[profmom]

Eh, he's fine. He handled it well, if his account was accurate. Sometimes peer-to-peer education, even if it involves rather rougher learning techniques, is the best possible solution, and occasionally having a smart mouth or even just exceptionally mobile eyebrows can get you places in life. We all have to bump along in this world together.

 

[LindyHopper]

Eh, he's fine. He handled it well, if his account was accurate. Sometimes peer-to-peer education, even if it involves rather rougher learning techniques, is the best possible solution, and occasionally having a smart mouth or even just exceptionally mobile eyebrows can get you places in life. We all have to bump along in this world together.

Glad that he handled it well. Still sad that he had to experience it at all.