WAG Teams Praying before/during meets

[Midwestmommy]

I really appreciate this discussion. I’d like to add an anecdote from our local middle school.

We had a request to move the locker of a Jewish girl. She is a member of one of the Jewish Community Centers who had multiple bomb threats in 2017, where a daycare of kids of all faiths needed to be evacuated twice.


Two 8th grade boys have felt empowered to make increasingly nasty anti Semitic comments in the hallway. They were not directed at this particular girl, they don’t know she is Jewish. Her mom got the truth out of her when her “funny Hanukkah” sweater was hidden under the bed on “funny holiday sweater day.” She had been so excited to buy it and participate, but by the time that day rolled around during School Spirit week, she didn’t want these two boys to find out she is Jewish.

Her mom asked that her locker be moved so she didn’t have to listen to these two boys who no doubt are learning about intolerance from their parents. By the way, this child’s grandmother was the only family member who survived the Holocast, her two brothers and parents and three first cousins and aunt and uncle were all murdered by the Nazis. So the memory of this is very much a part of their family history. To picture her having to listen to hateful ignorant boys making jokes about Jews and the Holocast at school is repugnant. And we aren’t in the Bible Belt. Middle school is already hard enough for any girl.

Now picture this girl seeing our president with his “Merry Christmas” sign at one of the “rallies.” Picture her the next day at a sporting event opened with a Christian prayer. Get the picture?

 

[BachFlyer]

There is enough negativity in this sport in regards to verbal and mental abuse, as we have seen play out recently. Some of us have had or have our kids in gyms where we question “where is the line?” in regards to verbal choices made by coaches. I am not judging those decisions by any means, they are very difficult decisions to make. I am just a little surprised that a coach who prays for safety before a meet is an immediate deal breaker for some, but a coach who flirts with the verbal abuse line isn’t.

Everyone has different opinions and I think it’s great that everyone has been respectful on this board of the various opinions. And thankfully we live in country where gymnasts, parents, coaches, and meet directors all how the freedom to choose how to run their meets and which meets to attend and support.

In regards to the first comment I quoted - Please help me understand how these two issues are conflated here. Requiring or requesting prayer out of my child is likely a dealbreaker for me, but so is verbal abuse. It doesn't seem fair to claim that anyone speaking on behalf of prayer-free meets/clubs readily accepts verbal abuse.

In regards to the second statement - we have no choice in which meets our club owner picks for us to attend. I suppose we do have the option to sit it out, but likely that would not happen since I had paid for it, so I guess we'd go along and tolerate it. At the end of the day, we likely wouldn't be "harmed" by any prayer, but I'd think it was beyond rude.

You can say that the intent is not to encourage or coerce participation, but the effect nonetheless is to do so, and the effect is what matters, since intent can be ambiguous.
.

This effect is where the harm comes in, in my opinion.

 

[BachFlyer]

I also wanted to say earlier, but forgot to, that I think a lot of this also depends on whether or not the religious intention has been communicated in advance. If you advertise as a religiously-affiliated meet and clearly advise participants and spectators that this is your intention, I take less issue. Because then you have allowed me a choice to respond however I wish. Same goes for a club/coach - tell me your religious intentions and your policies BEFORE I turn my money over to you and get my kid invested in your team. If you assume it's a-ok, or don't even bother considering it worth conversation, that is where it crosses the line into forced participation in my mind.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

Not going to get in a political debate here.

Merry Christmas is not anti-Semitic.

 

[MILgymFAM]

Not going to get in a political debate here.

Merry Christmas is not anti-Semitic.

Maybe not, but it is at least vaguely Christian and definitely has been more pointedly Christian in recent years. Secular Christmas is an affront to many people lately, as is simply not celebrating at all.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

I live in an area that is very diverse.

We have days off for many cultures/religions Christian, Jewish, Chinese New Year come to mind. It’s very area dependent. So an area with a higher Jewish population will have a school holiday schedule that accommodates, more Jewish observances, then a more Christian area. NYC schools have a closing for Chinese New Year now. We have Jewish Hospitals with Sabbath elevators and kosher cafeterias, we have Catholic hospitals where prayer is said every morning and mass offered in the chapel daily.

And both welcome all. But you should know what expect if you are there.

And that is entirely different then being forced to pray.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

Maybe not, but it is at least vaguely Christian and definitely has been more pointedly Christian in recent years. Secular Christmas is an affront to many people lately, as is simply not celebrating at all.

That it is vaguely Christian is not the same as Anti anything.

Of course that is why I prefer Happy Holiday

 

[Deleted member 18037]

Wanted to confirm with my kid.

But yes they still start their morning with a moment of silence after the pledge (Yep do that too, also not forced/required) in our district.

We have families that run the gamut. From believing in many different things to atheists/non believers.

All it is is a moment to reflect on anything of your choice, for some that might be prayer.

 

[Midwestmommy]

Not going to get in a political debate here.

Merry Christmas is not anti-Semitic.

No, but when utilized in an inappropriate way by someone supposed to be representing EVERYONE or at an event with people of many faiths, it takes on a different purpose of a message of exclusion. Similar to racist dog whistles (such as lack of condemnation of a hate message). Lack of tolerance and nods to extremist groups have often taken in this form rather than overt form since the 1960s, and extremists celebrate these subtle “dog whistles.” That is what I mean by my resentment of extremists “weaponizing” otherwise loving statements - I am a Christian. I say Merry Christmas, celebrate, and try to remember to mention Jewish holidays to my Jewish friends and tell people Happy ..... (fill one the blank). That’s a different thing than purposefully using it in inappropriate circumstances as a message of intolerance and exclusion — and a dog whistle to extremist hate groups.

 

[duyetanh]

Eh, he's fine. He handled it well, if his account was accurate. Sometimes peer-to-peer education, even if it involves rather rougher learning techniques, is the best possible solution, and occasionally having a smart mouth or even just exceptionally mobile eyebrows can get you places in life. We all have to bump along in this world together.

I am glad he is fine. But I still think it sucks!

 

[raenndrops]

As a gymnast I competed for a YMCA - the only time we ever were led in a prayer was at the opening cermonies of our national championship meet, but never for any other meet - we had girls of all faiths on our team - it was like 1 minute of one meet - no one cared either way.

I have never seen that before a meet as a coach, however, if I had a group of girls on my team who wanted to pray together before a meet that would be fine with me as long as it was their decision and as long as they were ok with girls not participating.

At the same time, most religions pray to someone - so perhaps that team that is huddled together in prayer before a meet isn’t all praying to the same higher being. Maybe they are praying, or maybe just taking a moment to focus on the meet at hand.

I’m not religious, but it wouldn’t offend me if a teammate or competitor was and wanted to pray before a meet.

Maybe if we weren’t so quick to jump to conclusions or to judge actions we don’t have the whole story behind we would be a lot happier and probably more open-minded.

Was your YMCA team "closed" (only competed with other YMCAs and no outside "club" teams)?
We are in a closed district and there is a prayer at the start of each session of each meet... mostly just a gymnast type prayer... except at our most recent meet that was much more "prayerish" and more uncomfortable for some.

I can understand YMCA "open" meets not doing a prayer.

 

[Texasmomof3]

All three of my kids played YMCA soccer when they young, at least 200 games collectively over their careers. It is as a closed, YMCA-only system. None of them ever had a prayer at any of their games. The kids did all recite the YMCA pledge at the start of every game, though, which included "to be a good sport" and "play to the best of my abilities."

 

[mom2newgymnast]

My kids did summer swim team at the YMCA for several years and they did a prayer before every swim meet. The same kind of prayer as her gym does, just a swimmers version. Keep them safe, do their best, etc.

 

[sfts]

Was your YMCA team "closed" (only competed with other YMCAs and no outside "club" teams)?
We are in a closed district and there is a prayer at the start of each session of each meet... mostly just a gymnast type prayer... except at our most recent meet that was much more "prayerish" and more uncomfortable for some.

I can understand YMCA "open" meets not doing a prayer.

I judge at YMCA league meets (closed by your definition since there are only Y teams) every year and have never heard a prayer so it might still be a regional thing.


On the topic in general, if I were required to be on the floor during a prayer, I would choose not to accept future judging assignments to that meet. That said, I have never been to a meet with an organized prayer or seen an entire team overtly praying. I have, however, been to many meets with girls in sport hijabs and wearing leggings for religious reasons.

 

[MILgymFAM]

I was doing a little football reading today (I’m from Philly- big grin!!!) and came across this article. No, it doesn’t directly link to gym, but I think it’s an important discussion. If professional athletes have to “come out” as non-Christians, I think it says a lot about how deeply we as a society have dropped religion into our sports.

https://www.thenation.com/article/getting-god-out-of-football/

 

[MabelSt]

For me personally, if the meet director or whoever, said a complete Catholic prayer in 100% Spanish, I wouldn't think twice or feel any offense.

I think Christian is still the same faith. She meant what if the majority of the group is doing a muslim prayer and you’re Christian? Or a different religion.

Oftentimes majority Christisn people in this country are so blind to their cultural privilege! I really want to move somewhere with a majority non religious population.

 

[MabelSt]

They absolutely cannot hurt me, but they can make me feel uncomfortable, out of place, and even unwanted in the right situation. I am an atheist. I am an urban northerner. It wasn’t until we moved to Texas- with the military- that I realized how much prayer and patriotism could be shoved into daily life. We saw it in kids sports, at our (government) jobs, even in my kids public schools. I know you think it shouldn’t bother us, but how would you honestly feel if every single day felt like it revolved around Islam? Seriously. I will never accept how much religion is forced down military families’ throats, I will never accept religion in schools, and thankfully I haven’t run into it, because I wouldn’t accept it in gymnastics either. As for the national anthem, no, that doesn’t feel like a harm to me.. but it does feel like a harm to this country. Forced displays of patriotism and blind fervency have replaced discourse and criticisms, which I believe to be the most important hallmarks of a democracy.

YES! THIS EXACTLY!

 

[SurpriseGymMom]

To tie in with the football article above, today I saw someone I know praise one of the Super Bowl players for being so public about his (Christian) faith and his ongoing recruitment of followers. Same thing that makes me cringe. And it reminded me.... several years back, we took our daughter to church because she had asked about it (we live in a pretty religious area with a large LDS population, we are neither). I am all for helping my kids be exposed to different things and even though it isn’t for *me* I was willing to sit through it in order to allow her to experience it and make up her own mind about it.

The *entire* service message consisted of how it was everyone’s obligation to go out and actively recruit others and spread the message any and all chances they got. It literally made my skin crawl. No wonder we have so many who feel it appropriate (hint: it is NOT) to push their religion on others, this is what they are being ordered to do, regardless of how uncomfortable it makes others. I have no clue of knowing if that is the ongoing active message in other churches but it certainly was in this one, and the interview with this Super Bowl player centered around that exact message.

Can you imagine for a moment if this same message and constant barrage was from a different religion..?? There would be an outcry. Yet somehow it is OK because it is Christianity...

Religion has no place in politics, sports or school. With the exception of learning about ALL religions around the world, equally.

 

[raenndrops]

With the exception of learning about ALL religions around the world, equally.

I agree with this. The funny thing is that in our local district, a few years back, some parents were up in arms because their 7th graders were learning about the pillars of Islam. They had already covered Hinduism and Buddhism. After Islam (the parents OBVIOUSLY didnt bother to read the syllabus sent home at the beginning of the year... that they had to SIGN - one of the class grades was the signing of the syllabus, stating that you read it and if you had any questions, feel free to email the teacher), they covered Judaism and Christianity.
Lol, Now, the Eastern Religions are in 6th grade and the Western religions are in 7th grade.

 

[BachFlyer]

To tie in with the football article above, today I saw someone I know praise one of the Super Bowl players for being so public about his (Christian) faith and his ongoing recruitment of followers. Same thing that makes me cringe. And it reminded me.... several years back, we took our daughter to church because she had asked about it (we live in a pretty religious area with a large LDS population, we are neither). I am all for helping my kids be exposed to different things and even though it isn’t for *me* I was willing to sit through it in order to allow her to experience it and make up her own mind about it.

The *entire* service message consisted of how it was everyone’s obligation to go out and actively recruit others and spread the message any and all chances they got. It literally made my skin crawl. No wonder we have so many who feel it appropriate (hint: it is NOT) to push their religion on others, this is what they are being ordered to do, regardless of how uncomfortable it makes others. I have no clue of knowing if that is the ongoing active message in other churches but it certainly was in this one, and the interview with this Super Bowl player centered around that exact message.

In my experience as someone who's rebuked much unwanted proselytizing, it seems it is a big tenet of being a good follower of a number of Christian-based religions. In that respect I understand why people do it, but I also really really hate when it is pushed on me after I've politely declined, and especially in a situation where I am a captive audience such as a sporting event.

Religion has no place in politics, sports or school. With the exception of learning about ALL religions around the world, equally.

Agree. I really, really don't care what people do in their own homes and lives, though. If that is what gives a person comfort and peace I can honestly appreciate it, even if I don't understand it.