Off Topic USA 2012 Elections Thread

[SkiBumGymMom]

I wasn't born rich... I made my money the old fashioned way. I earned it. What's wrong with that?

I don't think "poor people are parasites". I think lazy people are. Poor does not equal lazy... I have been poor.

Amazingly, I know many who have overcome their circumstances to become successful in this "land of opportunity". Not all are rich.

You are taking important steps to empower yourself. Your drive to improve your circumstances is a great asset. You have made a wise choice to take advantage of the opportunity to increase your education.

I know about coaching for the love of the sport. My father coached 33 years at the small college level. He was never paid to coach.

I would regard myself as someone who has overcome some pretty horrible circumstances, ones I was born into (poor family) , ones I got myself into by poor choices (having my first child at 17) and other ones that were handed to me by life (illness, the death of my husband, etc.) At times I made bad choices, but my children didn't deserve to suffer for that. Other times I was working my bum off and still not able to make ends meet. I now would consider myself middle class. I was the first in my family to go to college (starting with an associates from community college while I was a single teenage mother). Two of my three children went to/are in college (the other is dancing professionally). The thing is I acknowledge that I had help to get to the position I'm in today. From the family of my son's father (even if he was absent), from my husband's family and yes, from government social programs (CHP+, Medicaid, unemployment, WIC, EBT and at one short low point in my life TANF). In the past I was ashamed of this but now (in my old age ha ha) have realized it helped make me who I am and having gone through it makes me supportive of providing these programs to those still in need. Everyone has had help from someone in their life if they're successful, whether it's their parents/family, teachers, employers or even just the luck of the draw. There's nothing wrong with having help.

I agree that it takes motivation and hard work to get yourself out, but that's not the only factor nor is it the answer to why people are poor. Like I mentioned before I don't think "throwing money" at the problem fixes it. But as a society we should have programs (that often take money but also other things) that provide opportunities to those without them. It goes back to the old "you can feed a man with a fish for a day or you can teach a man to fish and he can feed himself his whole life". But some people can't fish, be it disability or another problem. Sometimes there are no fish and no matter how hard you work, you still can't feed yourself. Some people have parents to teach them to fish, some have no family at all or ones that try as hard as possible to make it impossible for you to fish. (Sorry for the extended metaphor) As a society we should support people in these positions IMO. The world isn't fair, some people will be more successful than others and there's nothing wrong with that, but I believe we should try to make it as just as possible.

 

[gymgal]

I agree that it takes motivation and hard work to get yourself out, but that's not the only factor nor is it the answer to why people are poor. Like I mentioned before I don't think "throwing money" at the problem fixes it. But as a society we should have programs (that often take money but also other things) that provide opportunities to those without them. It goes back to the old "you can feed a man with a fish for a day or you can teach a man to fish and he can feed himself his whole life". But some people can't fish, be it disability or another problem. Sometimes there are no fish and no matter how hard you work, you still can't feed yourself. Some people have parents to teach them to fish, some have no family at all or ones that try as hard as possible to make it impossible for you to fish. (Sorry for the extended metaphor) As a society we should support people in these positions IMO. The world isn't fair, some people will be more successful than others and there's nothing wrong with that, but I believe we should try to make it as just as possible.

Excellent post Ski, and I agree. However, I guess where I get "stuck" is in - who should be in charge of it, how far should it go, and who should pay for it.

Your story is one of success. It is what the system was designed for. You received help, you moved up and gave back to society (through taxes, teaching), you have children who will (hopefully) move above where you are and give back to society more than you can. And we are not talking about the disabled (cognitive, mental or physical) and we are not talking about the elderly. Most people (both sides of the aisle) agree that society needs to take care of the ones who literally cannot take care of themselves.

Unfortunately, the welfare system (including medicaid, housing subsidies, living expenses) all too often keeps people in a cycle of poverty.

How would I change it? Here are some ideas -

- work/volunteer for your benefits. The system is not currently set up to encourage people to "pay-back". It's one sided. Now, I fully realize there are a whole host of issues that would go with this - namely training and transportation. But it can be done with proper planning. training young mothers to work in child care facilities while having child care for their kids, work in shelters and food pantries/kitchens, parks and rec clean up crews, construction, handymen, painters, there are lots of jobs out there that need to be done.

-partner with private businesses to hire help for half of a normal starting wage while the person gets trained in a trade (while still receiving public assistance)

- provide tuition for trade schools only, which have a much faster graduation rate than college. Community college associates degree would work here too, as long as it's a degree that actually leads to job potential. There is no sense in the government paying for a degree that leads the graduate into a market overfull with "qualified" individuals.

- copays for dr visits, therapies, and prescriptions. Now, being a health care provider, i know this would be a logistical nightmare but I still think it's important step in "paying your way" even if it's only $1-5. And I'm ok with a cap on the amount one has to pay per month but it still is an acknowledgement that they are paying back to society, like the rest of us.

- reward those who are working by continuing their assistance for 1 yr after they go above the limits for the programs. this prevents families from "staying on the line" instead of trying to go above it. This is SO important in families with serious medical needs. the parents WANT to work. Want to better their lives but if they do, their child loses her benefits. Just as we should ALWAYS take care of the disabled, families with disabled children should not have their income count against their child's benefits.

- bring the system back to the communities so that there is accountability. this is happening in some programs, like WIC but it's not happening in the ones that give out the most money.

- repayment. If/when you attain a certain yearly income (say, $50,000), you begin to pay back to the system. I am not talking about repaying it all. It can be graduated based on how much you make. but just like loan programs for college or businesses, nothing should every be for free. And I also believe and major amount of money a person does get - inheritance, lottery, lawsuit - a certain portion needs to be given back to the system, aside from any taxes owed.

That's all for those on public assistance now - and I am not talking about unemployment or disability here. If you work, you pay into unemployment (or rather, you employer does). Same with disability.

 

[Andersonortho]

Gymgal... great ideas.

IMO the greatest challenge is how to motivate those who can work... to go to work. (Referring the general sense not including disabled, etc.) What encouragement (financial or otherwise) could by offered? This would be the most difficult in families with a generational pattern of receiving assistance.

We find this to be a significant problem in our community where many kids still live in homes with dirt floors and have grandparents who have never worked.

 

[gymgal]

Let's mix up the topic a little - thoughts on illegal immigration?

 

[Geoffrey Taucer]

An extremely complex issue, for which I don't know of any simple solution. But What we're doing now is simply a faulty system. In much of the southern US, La Migra's orders are basically "don't do your job too well, because then we won't have anybody to pick our crops."

Focusing just on immigrants from Mexico for a moment, I think the ideal solution would have to do two things:

First, we need to help the Mexican government improve working and living conditions within Mexico. Quite simply, the reason so many Mexicans come over here illegally is because, even when they are working in terrible conditions for long hours and getting below minimum wage, they're still better off here than there; obviously there are problems that need to be solved on the Mexican side of the border. I think one crucial aspect of this would be a complete overhaul of drug policies in both countries -- I don't know what the best approach to that would be, but what we're doing right now isn't working, and as long as Mexico is being so thoroughly torn apart by the drug war, any other sort of lasting social and economic change will be impossible. Under current policy, drug smuggling (and the issues that come with it) are simply too easy and too lucrative for people NOT to do.

Second, we need to make it easier to come across the border legally. This one's pretty simple and obvious, really. They want to work. We have work we want done. Surely we can find a way to meet everybody's needs, right?

 

[gymgal]

For those interested, there is a special program on schools on Fox News tonight at 9pm ET. I don't know much about it, just saw the preview which highlights an NC school where the district has increased class size to 30+ and has seen an increase in student success. Now, in the clip, it appeared that the students were working on laptops, so I don't know if they have totally changed their style of teaching... will be interesting to see.

 

[gymgal]

So... what is everyone thinking about the speeches from the Republican National Convention so far? I think it is hyping the base but I'm not sure it is giving the undecided's any more info to help them make decisions. I'm looking forward to next week's convention to see what path they will take.

 

[ALgymMom]

Clint was hilarious!!

 

[gymgal]

Clint was hilarious!!

I thought so too but I guess a lot of people disagreed, listening to all the news channels. Rubio was great too. Romney did his job, but I didn't think he "hit it out of the park". Not sure if it really matters though.

 

[Geoffrey Taucer]

Suggestion:

In all future debates, the moderator should have a cut switch for the microphones.

 

[gymgal]

Suggestion:

In all future debates, the moderator should have a cut switch for the microphones.

I SO agree with this... I have never seen such an out of control debate in terms of keeping time. Good debate though. both were well versed and respectful. Good information on both sides. I watched CNN and loved the real time poll they had for undecided voters. Don't know how accurate it is but it was definitely higher when Romney spoke about healthcare in particular. But rather flat for both on closing remarks.

 

[wandrewsjr]

Doesn't this sum it up perfectly?
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...613315903.85664.354522044588660&type=1&ref=nf

 

[bogwoppit]

Totally true, it was like watching paint dry. The moderator was useless.

 

[gymgal]

Doesn't this sum it up perfectly?
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...613315903.85664.354522044588660&type=1&ref=nf

Cnn kept time for both candidates and obama talked 5 minutes more than Romney. If people are going to take the time to create this stuff, at least get it right. I disagree that it was useless. Focus groups participants from both cnn and fox said that the debate swayed their vote. That is what the debates are for. The next debate formats will be more traditional and Obama will likely be a lot more comfortable in them.

 

[wallinbl]

I disagree that it was useless. Focus groups participants from both cnn and fox said that the debate swayed their vote. That is what the debates are for.

Ugh. Debates should conveyed reasoned and intelligent arguments. The debates we hold for elections are largely just opportunities for spin. The whole election season just makes me want to scream. Doesn't anyone care to ditch all the nonsense, find quality candidates, and get on with the business of improving things? The political arena is about as respectable as pro wrestling.

 

[bogwoppit]

The problem with focus groups is that they can never be truly representative, as some folk will never agree to participate. They are the voters that you need to poll, but they are unpollable. Like me, you ask, I hang up the phone. None of your business etc etc. Which is why those in studio "set ups" mean very little.

The fact that there are one two choices makes this a very odd situation. You have the incumbent or the other guy. Neither showed anything new. The format of the debate, though I use that term very loosely as that was not a debate, was tedious and ill managed.

How do you even find quality candidates when you have such an old and entrenched system?

 

[wallinbl]

How do you even find quality candidates when you have such an old and entrenched system?

The two parties are the biggest problem. They've worked to ensure that their stranglehold on power remains. It's one of the few things they cooperate on.

 

[gymgal]

The two parties are the biggest problem. They've worked to ensure that their stranglehold on power remains. It's one of the few things they cooperate on.

Very true.

 

[coachmolly]

I was only half tuned in to the debate as I was studying for a big test this morning (I'm one of those darn grad students that doesn't contribute to society, though I don't get federal funds either!). I'm still very much conflicted and I can't say what I saw from the debates pushed me one way or the other, though I suppose I should probably at least go back and try to catch some highlights.
Essentially, candidates can say whatever sounds good at these things to pull in a few more votes, but what are they actually going to follow through with? What plans do they have to put their words into action?

 

[wandrewsjr]

Cnn kept time for both candidates and obama talked 5 minutes more than Romney. If people are going to take the time to create this stuff, at least get it right. QUOTE]

Absolutely, how dare they stretch the truth or exagerate to prove their own, biased point. We should hold our political comedy writers to a much higher standard than we do our candidates for president