GymDad9.9
Proud Parent
Do you know where I can review the costs associated with operating a collegiate gymnastics program?
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profmom
Proud Parent
But personnel costs are usually the biggest bite out of a budget. Here are some fun facts, from the University of Michigan's salary database, which of course does not include incentives.
Kevin Sullivan (men's cross country): $77, 625
Mike McGuire (women's cross country): $122,315
Kurt Golder (men's gymnastics): $124,000
Erik Bakich (men's baseball): $173, 644
Bev Plocki (women's gymnastics): $198,000
Carol Hutchins (women's softball): $229,504
Kim Arico (women's basketball): $360,000
John Beilein (men's basketball): $400,000
James Harbaugh (men's football): $500,000
Many interesting things here, no? And of course some sports will have more coaches than others.
I'd like to ask you to hum along to the tune of "one of these things is not like the others." I am pretty sure that only one of the coaches on this list has trained an Olympic athlete.
Kevin Sullivan (men's cross country): $77, 625
Mike McGuire (women's cross country): $122,315
Kurt Golder (men's gymnastics): $124,000
Erik Bakich (men's baseball): $173, 644
Bev Plocki (women's gymnastics): $198,000
Carol Hutchins (women's softball): $229,504
Kim Arico (women's basketball): $360,000
John Beilein (men's basketball): $400,000
James Harbaugh (men's football): $500,000
Many interesting things here, no? And of course some sports will have more coaches than others.
I'd like to ask you to hum along to the tune of "one of these things is not like the others." I am pretty sure that only one of the coaches on this list has trained an Olympic athlete.
GymDad9.9
Proud Parent
Harbaugh's salary is in the $5 million annual range and Beilein's is closer to $3 million. I'm sure Harbaugh has a number of assistants making between $500,000 and $1 million, which is the new normal for retaining "top-flight" staff and same for Beilein's assistants.
I can only imagine how much fat there is in the Athletic Department itself as well.
All this money and how it's spent makes a mockery of both the spirit and legality of Title IX.
this post is a gold mine of information. Thank you!
some more questions:
1. are the criteria for walkons at prestigious academic institution that have high ranking gymnastics program different for those seeking a scholarship? ie, are you still looking at the same caliber athlete capable of scoring 9.8 in 2 events in college?
2. At what point in the recruiting process should you let the colleges know that you don't necessarily need a scholarship and are willing to walk-on (if it's your dream school but you may not be able to get into otherwise - ie, Stanford)
some more questions:
1. are the criteria for walkons at prestigious academic institution that have high ranking gymnastics program different for those seeking a scholarship? ie, are you still looking at the same caliber athlete capable of scoring 9.8 in 2 events in college?
2. At what point in the recruiting process should you let the colleges know that you don't necessarily need a scholarship and are willing to walk-on (if it's your dream school but you may not be able to get into otherwise - ie, Stanford)
I am trying to figure out what you meant by this. Each program has, on average, 3 or 4 spots open per year. So for the top 30 teams, that would mean 90 to 120 spots open per year for gymnast entering college. 50 qualified athletes per spot would mean 4,500 to 6,000 gymnasts competing for the spots in a given year. I would think the number of level 9's and 10's graduating from high school in any given year is more in the few hundred range.
You are making the assumption that those 50 qualified athletes for a spot are 50 DIFFERENT athletes for each & every spot. I don't think that's the case at all.
Very true, individual athletes could be competing for spots on many different teams. But I am curious about the numbers. There are 90 to 120 total spots on top 30 teams average each year for, maybe 200 to 300 hundred total qualified gymnasts? How many gymnasts do you think there are in a given year qualified for a spot on a top 30 team?
There are about 200 alone that go to Nationals each year (compete and alternates). Before the switch in age groups, Sr C/D were typically high school seniors. This year, I would think Sr D/E/F are seniors. Can anyone confirm? Then think about all the ones who are top L10s but are injured during regionals/nationals, and the elites not only from our country but several others with great programs. And girls who are specialists that certain colleges are looking specifically for to fill a hole. Add to that all the gymnasts who sit home from nationals, particularly in regions 1,3,5,8 because the amount of talent is so deep, you are likely looking at closer to 400-500.
So with about 100 slots in general per year in the top 30, you are looking at 1 slot for every 5 girls. But that's not really realistic because a lot of girls choose not to go onto college gymnasts - yes, even the really good ones. They are done with it all, are too injured to continue, want to concentrate on their studies, etc So probably looking at more like 1 for every 4.
Now, if you take all the D1 teams that offer scholarships, somewhere in the range of 55 (?), then you are talking about around 175 slots for the same 500 gymnasts. a Little better but not significantly. 1 slot for every 3 "qualified" gymnasts.
I know it's a controversial subject but some of these high profile sports generate a lot of revenue for their universities and Olympic sports programs do benefit from this fact. Gymnastics certainly isn't as expensive as football, but there is a liability there that some athletic departments stay away from (for example, the high rate of injuries). (My husband is a University Athletic Director so I'm always picking his brain about this subject since our dd is on that path...).
profmom
Proud Parent
College football, except for a handful of programs, is not a great net revenue gainer for most universities. Yes, they bring in a lot of money, but they spend it hand over fist.
http://www.al.com/sports/index.ssf/2014/08/ncaa_study_finds_all_but_20_fb.html
http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/sports/wp/2015/11/23/running-up-the-bills/?tid=pm_sports_pop_b
http://www.ncaa.org/about/resources...partments-make-more-they-spend-still-minority
Note that most net estimators do not take into account the costs that are effectively outsourced to other units and institutions. Formal tutoring may be on the books, but the informal or in-class tutoring and specific accommodations that many athletes need doesn't show up in the athletic department's bottom line. And in my experience, it's mostly the marquee sport athletes who need it. Some marquee sports are also unfortunately associated with problematic behavior by students that leaves a swath of economic and human damage in the wake of every big game. None of the cost of ameliorating that damage makes it into the athletic budget and some bleeds over from the university's costs to social and economic costs to the region's policing and justice systems. And as for liability, with the increased attention to subclinical concussions and associated increasingly disturbing research findings, football is looking down the tracks at a very ugly train headed right in its direction.
I love that Utah has managed to create a marquee sport out of something that does not have a tradition of lavish spending on facilities to attract top athletes, monstrous bonuses and incentives for dozens of coaches, student binge drinking and associated negative outcomes in the wake of major victories or defeats, widespread alcohol and drug use among athletes, and routinized acceptance and even encouragement for poor and/or dishonest academic performance.
http://www.al.com/sports/index.ssf/2014/08/ncaa_study_finds_all_but_20_fb.html
http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/sports/wp/2015/11/23/running-up-the-bills/?tid=pm_sports_pop_b
http://www.ncaa.org/about/resources...partments-make-more-they-spend-still-minority
Note that most net estimators do not take into account the costs that are effectively outsourced to other units and institutions. Formal tutoring may be on the books, but the informal or in-class tutoring and specific accommodations that many athletes need doesn't show up in the athletic department's bottom line. And in my experience, it's mostly the marquee sport athletes who need it. Some marquee sports are also unfortunately associated with problematic behavior by students that leaves a swath of economic and human damage in the wake of every big game. None of the cost of ameliorating that damage makes it into the athletic budget and some bleeds over from the university's costs to social and economic costs to the region's policing and justice systems. And as for liability, with the increased attention to subclinical concussions and associated increasingly disturbing research findings, football is looking down the tracks at a very ugly train headed right in its direction.
I love that Utah has managed to create a marquee sport out of something that does not have a tradition of lavish spending on facilities to attract top athletes, monstrous bonuses and incentives for dozens of coaches, student binge drinking and associated negative outcomes in the wake of major victories or defeats, widespread alcohol and drug use among athletes, and routinized acceptance and even encouragement for poor and/or dishonest academic performance.
D
Deleted member 14190
This is a good read,
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/open-letter-athlete-we-must-stop-recruiting-becky-carlson
Dear Prospective Student-Athlete,
I received your introductory two-line email and read through it. I must say your first sentence was painfully familiar as you introduced yourself by first name only. I assumed if you were trying to make an impression that you would have paid more attention to punctuation but my assumption appears incorrect. While your opening email failed to identify your last name, what year in school you are, where you are from, or what position you play, you managed to include your most pressing question as to whether our team is "giving out scholarships".
A week later, I received a second email with full color resume attachment including your action photos, and a variety of links to related newspaper articles. Each of these items were compiled in an orderly fashion and sent out directly from both your parents' emails.
While it took a bit to thumb through the long list of your impressive extracurricular activities please thank your parents for putting this packet together and understand that it would have been far more beneficial for our staff to speak to you personally by way of an old school phone call. As my staff sent correspondence to your personal email, we have received only a return from your parents apologizing and explaining that you are simply "too busy to answer".
As a word of advice, while many college coaches support parental enthusiasm, initiative taken by the athlete is crucial if you are serious about connecting with a quality program. Our staff explained to your parents that we would prefer to connect with you directly, but they continue to respond on your behalf. This will be a red flag for any coach, so please be aware of this feedback being a possibility from any of your other options.
When you visited the campus with your parents, the first thing I noticed is that they did most of the talking for you. However, when you did speak, you were openly correcting and verbally scolding them when you deemed their information sharing inaccurate. As a coach, an athlete who displays disrespect, especially to their parents, is a red flag in the recruiting game of analysis and observation.
As we toured the campus I took copious mental notes including a short ponder on how you were too busy for a returned phone call or email to our staff yet, your email-ready smartphone was all but attached to your hand the entire unofficial visit.
Upon your departure, our staff reviewed your stats, strength numbers and transcripts. All are impressive, but of course we had to see you compete. Unfortunately, the highlight film you left us with that was edited to perfection to omit mistakes, was unhelpful.
Despite my reservations, I made the trip to watch your game live so I could determine if your resume matched your talent. After observing only a few minutes of the team warm-up, I noted that you were clearly the most gifted on your squad. However, your talent was unfortunately overshadowed by the lack of energy and effort you displayed.
At halftime, the team huddled up and as always when observing recruits, I honed in carefully on your demeanor and body language. I watched you walk in the opposite direction of your teammates and take a seat on the bench away from the group. You did not return to the team circle until prompted by your assistant coach. As the head coach spoke, I observed you break off into a private conversation with another teammate, rather than offering the coach your attention.
In the second half, when you scored I noticed you waited for the other players to huddle around you and celebrate. In contrast, when a teammate scored, you retreated to your position without acknowledging or congratulating them.
You added much depth in the scoring category with some impressive runs but when you made mistakes you became vocal and eager to point out where your teammates needed to improve. You had moments of greatness but they were followed by sporadic lulls of half-hearted effort.
As you are the team captain, I found it disappointing that you did not contribute to the post game team discussion. I watched as your mother brought over snacks and saw that you made no effort to assist her in bringing those large containers of cupcakes from the bleachers out to your 40 other teammates. Last, as the rest of the team broke the field down and put equipment away, you found a quiet spot on the empty bench to text on your phone.
Perhaps as a high school-age athlete, these are behaviors you are simply unaware of. In a world where you are being taught the X's and O's of mastering a sport, so much practice and dialogue in character building is diminishing. I realize that you have been told repeatedly by many of your previous coaches that you are amazing in your sport. However, players like you, with similar demeanor are a dime a dozen.
Since you have been a star in your sport for quite a while with coaches and parents who have clearly allowed these details to slip through the cracks also, you are not entirely to blame. However, please bear in mind, none of this makes you a bad person only potentially, a bad teammate. The attributes I am judging you on happen to be far more important than any of your trophies, all-star selections or travel team accolades.
There is no doubt you are talented. However, from my experience, here are the 10 things I know about athletes like you.
1. Your incredible talent is the same talent that in your sophomore year of college will suddenly suffer an ego blow when a new freshman arrives with equal or greater talent. Battling your feeling of ownership over your position and feeling threatened is inevitable.
2. Rather than working hard to better your game, you are more likely to be the athlete that is constantly comparing your success to others rather than focusing on growth for yourself. This will become a tedious and exhausting process for your coaches and team to constantly have to reassure you of your self worth and value.
3. As those around you put in the work, rather than be grateful to be surrounded by a committed group of individuals who share common goals, you are more likely to resent them and seek out allies to split the team support in half and create locker room chatter.
4. In the event you see time on the bench you may not be emotionally prepared, willing to engage or support the teammate who is starting over you. Also, it is likely you will find it challenging to support the success your team obtains when they win without you on the field.
5. When you become unhappy with your own performance you are more likely to blame your coach, teammates or anyone other than yourself.
6. Since your previous coaches and adult guidance have fallen short in emphasizing the importance of accountability, you will likely be that much more of a challenge for our staff and program to work with.
7. Aside from your time in college, the end goal of being a student-athlete is to get a degree while playing a sport you love. If your goal as an athlete-student is to get a starting position while earning a degree you tolerate, your goals will be out of alignment with the program from the start.
8. Athletes who truly work for their program become stronger people who work well with others and are able to admit their weaknesses in order to improve. If I am forced to spend your first two years of college trying to catch you up on late lessons of being accountable and respectful, it is probable you will spend your second two years resenting me which ultimately leads to an ambush of bad senior exit interview feedback.
9. Athletes are treasured in the workforce and therefore, you are likely to land a job after you graduate. However, if you fail to get along with those in our program you are prone to carrying this over into your professional life. If you are unhappy with your boss or coworker you will be more likely to find yourself unequipped to work through your problem without soliciting complaining or quitting.
10. By choosing not to recruit you, I am saving my team culture. On the bright side, perhaps if you are rejected this will be your first opportunity to face adversity and grow from it.
I recognize that it is possible you could change with guidance by coming to our program. However, the investment on my end presents high risk to the health of team morale, my livelihood and sanity. In my younger coaching years I believed far too often that many like you were capable of transformation. Over time, without consistent support from the powers that be, I have lost my fair share of those battles and have watched colleagues lose their jobs when athletes like you are unsatisfied. I am a great coach who takes so much of my success and failure home with me at night and am actively making the choice to choose ethics and attitude over talent.
Today I crossed you off my list as a potential recruit despite your obvious talent. Over the thousands of hours I have spent away from my family recruiting, answering emails, calls, official visits, watching game film and logging contacts and evaluations, I have learned from my mistakes. As a result, although the athlete playing right next to you has half the stats and three quarters of your speed, they are supportive, determined and selfless. This kind of athlete, will be our next signee.
Please take these words and advice into consideration and I wish you all the best.
Coach
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/open-letter-athlete-we-must-stop-recruiting-becky-carlson
Dear Prospective Student-Athlete,
I received your introductory two-line email and read through it. I must say your first sentence was painfully familiar as you introduced yourself by first name only. I assumed if you were trying to make an impression that you would have paid more attention to punctuation but my assumption appears incorrect. While your opening email failed to identify your last name, what year in school you are, where you are from, or what position you play, you managed to include your most pressing question as to whether our team is "giving out scholarships".
A week later, I received a second email with full color resume attachment including your action photos, and a variety of links to related newspaper articles. Each of these items were compiled in an orderly fashion and sent out directly from both your parents' emails.
While it took a bit to thumb through the long list of your impressive extracurricular activities please thank your parents for putting this packet together and understand that it would have been far more beneficial for our staff to speak to you personally by way of an old school phone call. As my staff sent correspondence to your personal email, we have received only a return from your parents apologizing and explaining that you are simply "too busy to answer".
As a word of advice, while many college coaches support parental enthusiasm, initiative taken by the athlete is crucial if you are serious about connecting with a quality program. Our staff explained to your parents that we would prefer to connect with you directly, but they continue to respond on your behalf. This will be a red flag for any coach, so please be aware of this feedback being a possibility from any of your other options.
When you visited the campus with your parents, the first thing I noticed is that they did most of the talking for you. However, when you did speak, you were openly correcting and verbally scolding them when you deemed their information sharing inaccurate. As a coach, an athlete who displays disrespect, especially to their parents, is a red flag in the recruiting game of analysis and observation.
As we toured the campus I took copious mental notes including a short ponder on how you were too busy for a returned phone call or email to our staff yet, your email-ready smartphone was all but attached to your hand the entire unofficial visit.
Upon your departure, our staff reviewed your stats, strength numbers and transcripts. All are impressive, but of course we had to see you compete. Unfortunately, the highlight film you left us with that was edited to perfection to omit mistakes, was unhelpful.
Despite my reservations, I made the trip to watch your game live so I could determine if your resume matched your talent. After observing only a few minutes of the team warm-up, I noted that you were clearly the most gifted on your squad. However, your talent was unfortunately overshadowed by the lack of energy and effort you displayed.
At halftime, the team huddled up and as always when observing recruits, I honed in carefully on your demeanor and body language. I watched you walk in the opposite direction of your teammates and take a seat on the bench away from the group. You did not return to the team circle until prompted by your assistant coach. As the head coach spoke, I observed you break off into a private conversation with another teammate, rather than offering the coach your attention.
In the second half, when you scored I noticed you waited for the other players to huddle around you and celebrate. In contrast, when a teammate scored, you retreated to your position without acknowledging or congratulating them.
You added much depth in the scoring category with some impressive runs but when you made mistakes you became vocal and eager to point out where your teammates needed to improve. You had moments of greatness but they were followed by sporadic lulls of half-hearted effort.
As you are the team captain, I found it disappointing that you did not contribute to the post game team discussion. I watched as your mother brought over snacks and saw that you made no effort to assist her in bringing those large containers of cupcakes from the bleachers out to your 40 other teammates. Last, as the rest of the team broke the field down and put equipment away, you found a quiet spot on the empty bench to text on your phone.
Perhaps as a high school-age athlete, these are behaviors you are simply unaware of. In a world where you are being taught the X's and O's of mastering a sport, so much practice and dialogue in character building is diminishing. I realize that you have been told repeatedly by many of your previous coaches that you are amazing in your sport. However, players like you, with similar demeanor are a dime a dozen.
Since you have been a star in your sport for quite a while with coaches and parents who have clearly allowed these details to slip through the cracks also, you are not entirely to blame. However, please bear in mind, none of this makes you a bad person only potentially, a bad teammate. The attributes I am judging you on happen to be far more important than any of your trophies, all-star selections or travel team accolades.
There is no doubt you are talented. However, from my experience, here are the 10 things I know about athletes like you.
1. Your incredible talent is the same talent that in your sophomore year of college will suddenly suffer an ego blow when a new freshman arrives with equal or greater talent. Battling your feeling of ownership over your position and feeling threatened is inevitable.
2. Rather than working hard to better your game, you are more likely to be the athlete that is constantly comparing your success to others rather than focusing on growth for yourself. This will become a tedious and exhausting process for your coaches and team to constantly have to reassure you of your self worth and value.
3. As those around you put in the work, rather than be grateful to be surrounded by a committed group of individuals who share common goals, you are more likely to resent them and seek out allies to split the team support in half and create locker room chatter.
4. In the event you see time on the bench you may not be emotionally prepared, willing to engage or support the teammate who is starting over you. Also, it is likely you will find it challenging to support the success your team obtains when they win without you on the field.
5. When you become unhappy with your own performance you are more likely to blame your coach, teammates or anyone other than yourself.
6. Since your previous coaches and adult guidance have fallen short in emphasizing the importance of accountability, you will likely be that much more of a challenge for our staff and program to work with.
7. Aside from your time in college, the end goal of being a student-athlete is to get a degree while playing a sport you love. If your goal as an athlete-student is to get a starting position while earning a degree you tolerate, your goals will be out of alignment with the program from the start.
8. Athletes who truly work for their program become stronger people who work well with others and are able to admit their weaknesses in order to improve. If I am forced to spend your first two years of college trying to catch you up on late lessons of being accountable and respectful, it is probable you will spend your second two years resenting me which ultimately leads to an ambush of bad senior exit interview feedback.
9. Athletes are treasured in the workforce and therefore, you are likely to land a job after you graduate. However, if you fail to get along with those in our program you are prone to carrying this over into your professional life. If you are unhappy with your boss or coworker you will be more likely to find yourself unequipped to work through your problem without soliciting complaining or quitting.
10. By choosing not to recruit you, I am saving my team culture. On the bright side, perhaps if you are rejected this will be your first opportunity to face adversity and grow from it.
I recognize that it is possible you could change with guidance by coming to our program. However, the investment on my end presents high risk to the health of team morale, my livelihood and sanity. In my younger coaching years I believed far too often that many like you were capable of transformation. Over time, without consistent support from the powers that be, I have lost my fair share of those battles and have watched colleagues lose their jobs when athletes like you are unsatisfied. I am a great coach who takes so much of my success and failure home with me at night and am actively making the choice to choose ethics and attitude over talent.
Today I crossed you off my list as a potential recruit despite your obvious talent. Over the thousands of hours I have spent away from my family recruiting, answering emails, calls, official visits, watching game film and logging contacts and evaluations, I have learned from my mistakes. As a result, although the athlete playing right next to you has half the stats and three quarters of your speed, they are supportive, determined and selfless. This kind of athlete, will be our next signee.
Please take these words and advice into consideration and I wish you all the best.
Coach
shelovestoflip
Proud Parent
How does a walk on work? Do they still contact the coaches ahead of time (in HS)? How does the coach know they want to be a 'walk on'? Sorry, not sure what that means!!
coachp, that was fantastic...just fantastic. Please everyone, take the time to read it.
D
Deleted member 14190
I think accountability should be a required course in school, but then again,,,, someone will eventually fail the class and blame the teacher..... 
MomIdidit!
Proud Parent
I just read the letter to hubby, wow.....Thank you coachp....that was amazing!!! That was a definite eye opener.
Omg...so true...in all areas of education...it's very sad when this happens, and it happens all the time. Ugh. There is little accountability with some of today's youth it seems...I think accountability should be a required course in school, but then again,,,, someone will eventually fail the class and blame the teacher.....
D
Deleted member 14190
From Proactive Coaching -
At age 13, I went to my dad to complain about a situation where I didn’t think I was being treated fairly by a coach. My dad listened very closely to the whole story and then looked at me and told me something that stuck with me for the rest of my life… He simply said, “Work harder”, and walked away. Lesson learned. Stop whining and get to work. Instead of rescuing, excusing and enabling our kids by blaming others and fighting battles for them, or going immediately to the AD, principal and school board to demand the coach be fired… think about teaching our kids the simple wisdom of taking responsibility for your own situation.
Proactive Coaching
At age 13, I went to my dad to complain about a situation where I didn’t think I was being treated fairly by a coach. My dad listened very closely to the whole story and then looked at me and told me something that stuck with me for the rest of my life… He simply said, “Work harder”, and walked away. Lesson learned. Stop whining and get to work. Instead of rescuing, excusing and enabling our kids by blaming others and fighting battles for them, or going immediately to the AD, principal and school board to demand the coach be fired… think about teaching our kids the simple wisdom of taking responsibility for your own situation.
Proactive Coaching
thefellowsmom
Proud Parent
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