WAG Scratching vs missing skills

[Ali'sMom]

I was told that if DD doesn't get her kip for L4, if the rest of her skills/routines look good, and she's working hard, that she would compete L4, and scratch bars.
DD said "That's okay, mom, I'd be okay with really low scores and just doing a glide".

I am figuring since pretty much the whole routine is like 2 kips, that would be a lot of deductions. Then I started wondering if that would even be allowed?
I know I could ask HC, but I don't want to seem pushy while we're still trying to get the kip... don't want to appear as CGM

So, anyone know if it could be done, and just miss the kips? And, if it could be, would it still just be better to scratch?

 

[my4buffaloes]

I have seen level 4s do a bar routine minus the kip. it scores low - but obviously not as low as if they scratched the event.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

individual gym rules. most won't compete them unless they have full routines. we do the same. the reason for most is that we don't want to set an expectation of incomplete routines. then they are being rewarded for incomplete work. and then some kids will just rest on that and stop working diligently and take inordinately longer to learn whatever it is they must learn to compete that event with a complete routine.

 

[Ali'sMom]

individual gym rules. most won't compete them unless they have full routines. we do the same. the reason for most is that we don't want to set an expectation of incomplete routines. then they are being rewarded for incomplete work. and then some kids will just rest on that and stop working diligently and take inordinately longer to learn whatever it is they must learn to compete that event with a complete routine.

That does make more sense to me. I was kind of surprised when DD said she would be okay with low scores (SO not like her!). I think personally I'd prefer she scratch, rather than do it "half".

 

[2gymmies]

Many gyms wouldn't let you be Level 4 at all without the kips, you would be competing level 3 or excel. Good luck getting that kip!

 

[MILgymFAM]

Many gyms wouldn't let you be Level 4 at all without the kips, you would be competing level 3 or excel. Good luck getting that kip!

Our gym wouldn't allow competing at 4 without all of the required skills. That being said, all kids are different. There is a girl at our gym who didn't compete all four events due to a fear issue, but that was an exception. Normally if you are on a level, HC expects you to compete all four events, period. I am honestly surprised that they aren't working the kip in hopes of L4, but with the caveat that she compete L3 if she doesn't get it. In any case, good luck to your DD in getting her kip. My DD just starting trying them too.

 

[gymjunkie]

You are allowed to do either (scratch or attempt and miss). I would never let one of my gymnasts do either. They would not compete 4 unless they were able to start the season at at least a high 8. I also have my L3s train & compete kips so that we never have this problem when they train for 4!

 

[Ali'sMom]

I was actually surprised that moving up and scratching bars was an option. I don't think it's very common in my gym, and I'm not completely sure why it would be okay for my daughter. That said, this is one of the times I will defer to the coach. There are benefits to both sides, repeating 3 or moving to 4 and scratching bars, for her.
Of course, I am going to keep hoping for that kip, and have all of my concern being in vain.

But I am definitely gathering that if she does do 4 with no kip, that it would be better to scratch than do half of a routine.

 

[Aussie_coach]

I am surprised she is allowed to be in level 4 without a kip. A prerequisite for moving to a new level is generally that they can do all their skills safely.

 

[Committed]

DDs gym wouldn't allow it either. There's no crossing your fingers when it comes to skills.

I'm wondering if maybe her coaches are trying to take the stress away? I know that when DD was trying to get her kip, she was just trying too hard: cutting the glide too short, very tight, etc.

 

[Chalky]

Here's my understanding......
Since each kip in L.4 is now worth 0.60, and deliberate omission is a penalty of double the value of a skill, A L.4 bar routine with neither kip attempted, would automatically incur 2.40 in deductions off the bat. [(0.6*2) + (0.6*2)]. So the routine would start out of 7.60. If the gymnast attempts the kips, but falls, the judges can deduct up to the value of the skill, plus the fall. So up to 1.1 deduction per kip (0.6 + 0.5). Plus any rhythm deductions, form etc. that they choose to take.

 

[myeyeson_u]

Many gyms wouldn't let you be Level 4 at all without the kips, you would be competing level 3 or excel. Good luck getting that kip!

YUP! This was DD's situation. She was L4 at our old club b4 we moved to the state we're at now (she didn't compete L4 tho). She went to do evals at the gym she's at now. Coach was like "Yeah, we're going to keep her in Xcel Silver" pretty much. I had no idea what an Xcel Silver was at the time. But it was because she didn't have her kip. And they don't do L3 at her gym. And the L4's were competing in August. We'd just gotten to the gym a month prior. It didn't take her very long to get it though. Good luck!

 

[SurpriseGymMom]

Our gym has the gymnast scratch the event if they cannot perform the routine reasonably well (and safely). We had a little one scratch bars on most meets this past season because she simply would not do the squat on.... So she had to scratch, every time.
We did see a few girls either omitting the kip (or squat on) OR being spotted on those at meets, but that wouldn't fly at our gym.

 

[Deleted member 14190]

no kip no compete.

 

[my4buffaloes]

I have seen our gym move up girls with no kip. But that was at the beginning of summer and the comp season is months away. I think if that is truly the only skill the child is missing and they are close then the coaches assume she will have it be meet season and move them up and continue to train the level 4 skills including the kip. That could be the case here.

 

[Ali'sMom]

Thank you all for the input!

I have seen our gym move up girls with no kip. But that was at the beginning of summer and the comp season is months away. I think if that is truly the only skill the child is missing and they are close then the coaches assume she will have it be meet season and move them up and continue to train the level 4 skills including the kip. That could be the case here.

This is indeed why she's been moved up already. But that doesn't guarantee what level she will compete at. I believe last year competition levels were evaluated near the end of July, but I can't recall completely.

Here's my understanding......
Since each kip in L.4 is now worth 0.60, and deliberate omission is a penalty of double the value of a skill, A L.4 bar routine with neither kip attempted, would automatically incur 2.40 in deductions off the bat. [(0.6*2) + (0.6*2)]. So the routine would start out of 7.60. If the gymnast attempts the kips, but falls, the judges can deduct up to the value of the skill, plus the fall. So up to 1.1 deduction per kip (0.6 + 0.5). Plus any rhythm deductions, form etc. that they choose to take.

With that being the case, then if she is given the option, she would definitely scratch.

I see that many gyms would not let her move up, and I just want to make sure you understand, we are not the ones who asked for this situation, the HC is the one who told me that "if the rest of her skills are good, depending on how she feels, she could compete L4 and scratch on bars until she gets it". (I just don't want anyone thinking I'm the one pushing this).

Part of me wouldn't mind her being made to stay L3 in the fall, through States in December. There are many other factors involved with my daughter right now, that I'm just letting it go with whatever HC decides. (I truly was just wondering, after DD said she'd rather do the bars and take a low score, if she would be able to skip the skills)

 

[lovemygymnast]

Our gym moved up a whole group to L4 that don't have their kip but my understanding is that it will be reevaluated in August about whether they get moved back to 3 if they don't get their kip. We have all new rules & such this year but they got burned last year. They pushed up girls to 4 without their kip & basically only 1 had her kip by competition. So, they're changing the rules this year which makes sense. My DD has her kip & competed it all last year for L3, but out of the entire group which is maybe 20, like 4 or 5 total have it & only 2 competed it all last year for L3.

You said you weren't sure why they are allowing her to be L4? I'd bet she's very close to getting her kip but just not quite there. Good luck! I hope she gets it soon!

 

[gracyomalley]

DD competed old L5 without her kip for 3 meets when she was 8. Her old gym did not compete L4 (now3) and she was ready to compete on the other 3 events (scoring mid-high 8s). She scratched rather than get scores in the 5 range on bars. She had her kip after those meets, went to state, etc....she was like 3 foot 8 at the time.

She could have waited. Other girls on her team did, and some followed her path - it really depended upon the kid and what the coach thought would happen in the next couple of months.

At an entry level, I really think its a reasonable choice to let a kid get out there but if a gym competes lower levels, or if a kid is trying for the next level, I think it leads to a false sense of progression - I see that in the optional levels now - there are certainly kids who have a weak event, but if they can't put together a routine that along with their other events has a reasonable chance of getting them to states/regionals, etc then I'm not sure its in their best interest to move up anyway. Bars skills are still slow coming for DD - but what she can do is done so well that even in that event her scores are high 8s/low 9s - if they weren't then it would drag her overall scores down to a point where she wouldn't feel/be successful - and since she is still young there's no point in moving too fast...

All that to say it really depends upon the kid and team culture - could be good, could be too much too soon

 

[Gymmom12]

My 8 y/o is level 4... She has her kip & has had her squat on... She has been in this funk where she is holding back on the squat on during practices. She says she's not holding back, but that's what it looks like. She fell a month or two ago jumping to the high bar. She wasn't hurt thankfully, just scared her. She is really short and does have lack of mobility ankles which we are stretching them daily. They are getting little by little more mobile. Her coach is working very patiently with her and has given me recommendations/instructions on what to do to work on the squat on b/c my daughter has uneven bars at home. One day she nails them & the next week or two ???? No squat on and even some days struggles with the kip. If she didn't have the skill multiple times I wouldn't really have a problem with moving her back to level 3, disappointing but... The fact she has done them both many times. If she didn't have them then I could understand. She keeps saying I can't do it. So frustrating b/c she can!! Just don't understand what else we can do other than encourage, practice, and not force her.. Anyone-else's daughter gone through these phases? If so what else can we do?

 

[1canadiangymmom]

OMG yes, squat on issues 2 years ago... would have it, then would lose it, would have it again, then lose it. And flyaways this past year. Had it, competed it very successfully at all meets, then after provincials, it disappeared again. Patience, patience and more patience. I have found, the more of a big deal you make out of it, the worse it is. She will get is solid soon enough. Try not to stress about it.