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Deductions for Open Pike vs. Layout

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Flicfliclay

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Quick question how do judges look at deductions for level 9 and 10 if your kids does and open pike vs a layout on bars and vault? Would it be better to do a pike or layout instead of open?
 

Solid444

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From my experience judges prefer to have the skill you are attempting to be clear and concise. IMO a very well executed pike will trump a poorly executed layout.

I wouldn’t want the judges to guess the skill. Then you get knocked down to the lower skill and you get form deductions.
 
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Flicfliclay

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From my experience judges prefer to have the skill you are attempting to be clear and concise. IMO a very well executed pike will trump a poorly executed layout.

I wouldn’t want the judges to guess the skill. Then you get knocked down to the lower skill and you get form deductions.
That is what i thought. I just wasn't positive on what judges were looking for. So basically go with what you are better at at the time.
 

Solid444

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That is what i thought. I just wasn't positive on what judges were looking for. So basically go with what you are better at at the time.
Yes I’ve seen some greatly executed pikes on vault out score poorly executed ambiguous layouts. Great block, great form, great toes and great landings.
 
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coachp

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Yes I’ve seen some greatly executed pikes on vault out score poorly executed ambiguous layouts. Great block, great form, great toes and great landings.
I have seen it to, but don’t agree with the judging . Last year they were scoring pike yurchenko over handspring fronts and layouts . It was a joke . The better vaulter is not the easier vault . If the pike is so awesome then why isn’t it a layout .... and what gives with the new way of judging handspring fronts ? Judges are clueless on these . The level of danger is so high with a handspring front and the difficulty is way higher , yet they butchered them last year ...
 

Flicfliclay

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I have seen it to, but don’t agree with the judging . Last year they were scoring pike yurchenko over handspring fronts and layouts . It was a joke . The better vaulter is not the easier vault . If the pike is so awesome then why isn’t it a layout .... and what gives with the new way of judging handspring fronts ? Judges are clueless on these . The level of danger is so high with a handspring front and the difficulty is way higher , yet they butchered them last year ...
To be honest i have no idea about how things are judged.. I have however seen what looks to my eyes a pike vault done extremely well get a lower score than a crappy layout..I feel like vault is always a big question mark! Same with bars dismounts... if i am confused if something is a pike or a layout, to me it should not get credit.. It should be clear on what the skill is!
 

Muddlethru

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Judging is unpredictable, inconsistent and subjective. But in my experience between a pike and a layout, the judges reward the more difficult skill. However, between a layout and full, a well executed layout seems to always trump a full; likely because a lot more goes into a full and thus can incur more deductions.

The coach has to let the judges know what skill the gymnast will be performing. So the judges know ahead of time what to look for. I found though an open pike can get a slight deduction.
 

GAgymmom

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Judging is unpredictable, inconsistent and subjective. But in my experience between a pike and a layout, the judges reward the more difficult skill. However, between a layout and full, a well executed layout seems to always trump a full; likely because a lot more goes into a full and thus can incur more deductions.

The coach has to let the judges know what skill the gymnast will be performing. So the judges know ahead of time what to look for. I found though an open pike can get a slight deduction.
They don’t tell the judges. On vault they tell you the number, but sometimes the vault doesn’t match or it’s performed incorrectly which changed the number. So the judges still have to watch and judge what they see. On bars, they don’t tell the judges anything (op said bars and vault, so I’m answering accordingly).
Inconsistent? Hmmmm..... Only between judges, but each judge is usually consistent in how they personally judge; the inconsistency is just that you see different judges at different meets.
 

Muddlethru

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They don’t tell the judges. On vault they tell you the number, but sometimes the vault doesn’t match or it’s performed incorrectly which changed the number. So the judges still have to watch and judge what they see. On bars, they don’t tell the judges anything (op said bars and vault, so I’m answering accordingly).
Inconsistent? Hmmmm..... Only between judges, but each judge is usually consistent in how they personally judge; the inconsistency is just that you see different judges at different meets.
Yes, I was only referring to vault as that was what the OP was asking and not bars.
 

Muddlethru

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They don’t tell the judges. On vault they tell you the number, but sometimes the vault doesn’t match or it’s performed incorrectly which changed the number. So the judges still have to watch and judge what they see. On bars, they don’t tell the judges anything (op said bars and vault, so I’m answering accordingly).
Inconsistent? Hmmmm..... Only between judges, but each judge is usually consistent in how they personally judge; the inconsistency is just that you see different judges at different meets.
Additionally, the OP is asking what judges in general look at, not a single judge, hence my reference to inconsistency. So I don’t understand the latter part of your post and how it is even relevant since as you indicated, we see different judges at different meets. It is not one single judge’s opinion we are trying to decipher here.
 

beachgirl

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There's no deduction if the vault number isn't the vault that is performed. To the OP, my daughter competed a pike the first few meets of L9 and scored in the 9-9.2 range. She consistently scored 9.5-9.6 with the same vault in L8. By the last few meets of L9 she did a layout, but it still had a decent pike in it and scored 9.4-9.55. The max pike deduction in a layout is bigger than losing the points in the sv of L9, so it all depends on the gymnast. In L10 the sv is lower for a pike, so laying it out may be to the gymnasts benefit even if it is piked as long as it doesn't hurt the rest of the execution.
 

GAgymmom

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Additionally, the OP is asking what judges in general look at, not a single judge, hence my reference to inconsistency. So I don’t understand the latter part of your post and how it is even relevant since as you indicated, we see different judges at different meets. It is not one single judge’s opinion we are trying to decipher here.
Judging is not inconsistent, it is consistent individually per judge; it’s just that you don’t see the same judges on the same event at every meet, therefore giving different scores on the same events even when performed similarly. It’s not inconsistency. I am very consistent in the way I judge, as are my colleagues. When you say inconsistent, I was clarifying why it may appear that way when in reality it isn’t.
 
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Muddlethru

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Judging is not inconsistent, it is consistent individually per judge; it’s just that you don’t see the same judges on the same event at every meet, therefore giving different scores on the same events even when performed similarly. It’s not inconsistency. I am very consistent in the way I judge, as are my colleagues. When you say inconsistent, I was clarifying why it may appear that way when in reality it isn’t.
I see what you are saying, again like I said, I just don’t think a single judge’s consistency is relevant to the OP’s question. She clearly states “how do judgeS look at deductions”, not how does one judge look at deductions. If you scored all the meets, then perhaps there will be consistency. But since you don’t, and there are multiple different judges with different preferences etc. there is clearly inconsistencies across the board. Just my opinion and of course you are entitled to yours.
 

GAgymmom

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I see what you are saying, again like I said, I just don’t think a single judge’s consistency is relevant to the OP’s question. She clearly states “how do judgeS look at deductions”, not how does one judge look at deductions. If you scored all the meets, then perhaps there will be consistency. But since you don’t, and there are multiple different judges with different preferences etc. there is clearly inconsistencies across the board. Just my opinion and of course you are entitled to yours.
I wasn’t responding to the OP when I responded to your saying judging is inconsistent. My initial comment to you had nothing to do with the OP’s question. And again, my point is that judging isn’t inconsistent, it’s just that you don’t see the same judges every time which accounts for the differences in scoring for similar routines. Each judge is consistent in how they personally judge. The reason I responded in the first place was because it’s a very negative and almost insulting thing to state that judging is inconsistent, and to someone new to the sport it immediately creates a negative mindset about judges. You’ve no idea the months of studying, clinics, practice judging, and testing that is required of judges every year. The entire reason I said anything was to remove that negative tone from your comment because it’s not a fair statement.

Judging “varies” from meet to meet, it’s not “inconsistent.”
 

Muddlethru

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I wasn’t responding to the OP when I responded to your saying judging is inconsistent. My initial comment to you had nothing to do with the OP’s question. And again, my point is that judging isn’t inconsistent, it’s just that you don’t see the same judges every time which accounts for the differences in scoring for similar routines. Each judge is consistent in how they personally judge. The reason I responded in the first place was because it’s a very negative and almost insulting thing to state that judging is inconsistent, and to someone new to the sport it immediately creates a negative mindset about judges. You’ve no idea the months of studying, clinics, practice judging, and testing that is required of judges every year. The entire reason I said anything was to remove that negative tone from your comment because it’s not a fair statement.

Judging “varies” from meet to meet, it’s not “inconsistent.”
Well my post is in response to OP. Perhaps you should respond to OP and leave my personal opinion and experience alone. You don’t like the word Inconsistent so you define it as varied. Inconsistent, varied, different all lead to the same thing. They are not the same and not uniform because each judge is different. Lastly, you don’t even know me to assume I have no idea what goes into becoming a judge.

My post was an expression of my own personal experience. All I said was judging was unpredictable, inconsistent and subjective. I then proceeded to respond to the OP. You have since attacked me for merely stating it is unpredictable. I don’t see how that is so negative,. As far as your perceived negativity my post has against judges based on one single word, you’ll find hundreds of posts in this forum alone complaining about judges who have biases based on leos, gyms, personal preferences and all the confusion and frustration that they’ve experienced. The two posts above mine have “negative tones” about judging yet you choose to attack for one single word. Unbelievable really!
 

Muddlethru

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I wasn’t responding to the OP when I responded to your saying judging is inconsistent. My initial comment to you had nothing to do with the OP’s question. And again, my point is that judging isn’t inconsistent, it’s just that you don’t see the same judges every time which accounts for the differences in scoring for similar routines. Each judge is consistent in how they personally judge. The reason I responded in the first place was because it’s a very negative and almost insulting thing to state that judging is inconsistent, and to someone new to the sport it immediately creates a negative mindset about judges. You’ve no idea the months of studying, clinics, practice judging, and testing that is required of judges every year. The entire reason I said anything was to remove that negative tone from your comment because it’s not a fair statement.

Judging “varies” from meet to meet, it’s not “inconsistent.”
For me to say that judging is unpredictable carries a very “negative undertone” that deserves your constant attack but to say “judges are clueless” is not negative at all? Did you chose to attack me because you felt I was an easier target?

Again, I did not say you were inconsistent. I said judges are. And unless you are able to get into each judges head and scoring history, you have no idea how they judge and can’t attest with 100% certainty to their consistency!
 

Muddlethru

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To clarify, I meant to say inconsistent not unpredictable in my las two posts.
 

GAgymmom

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For me to say that judging is unpredictable carries a very “negative undertone” that deserves your constant attack but to say “judges are clueless” is not negative at all? Did you chose to attack me because you felt I was an easier target?

Again, I did not say you were inconsistent. I said judges are. And unless you are able to get into each judges head and scoring history, you have no idea how they judge and can’t attest with 100% certainty to their consistency!
Wow, you are quite defensive. Since I know nothing and you obviously know better, I will not continue this ridiculous line of commenting. I haven’t attacked anyone, if you read all my comments you will find no attacking at all. I can’t say the same about your responses, though. The end.
 
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Mrs. Puma

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Let get back on topic, friends. And please be kind. It’s absolutely ok to disagree, but there’s enough negativity in the world. :)
 
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Muddlethru

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Wow, you are quite defensive. Since I know nothing and you obviously know better, I will not continue this ridiculous line of commenting. I haven’t attacked anyone, if you read all my comments you will find no attacking at all. I can’t say the same about your responses, though. The end.
Just to be clear, the comment “Judges are clueless” did not come from me but from another poster above. But you continued to pick on my opinion that judging was inconsistent which is by the way based on my own personal experience, not yours and not even directed at you. You are from a different state and you have never judged at my state or even Levels 9 and 10. So how you judge does not reflect whatsoever on the judging I’ve experienced.
 
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