WAG Addressing the Lack of Artistry in Current Gymnastics

[Faith]

waiting lists really have nothing to do with it. but if you have an urgent or exigent medical condition, it is true that some of you die before you can get care.

Not really true. The huge waiting lists are for non-urgent or elective procedures. If you have something needing urgent care you get seen very quickly. Of all the complaints about the NHS, it's unheard of (to my knowledge at least) for someone to die (of that complaint) because of a waiting list. You get bumped up the list according to urgency, which is why some people wait for a long time, if they're non-urgent they get shoved to the back of the list. Children in particular are seen almost immediately. My gymnast was seen, x-rayed, and reviewed within an hour, for a minor injury.

 

[rjb123]

I have been thinking about this for a while. I was trying to figure out exactly how you could define artistry, and then decided that you just can't. For me, I think that the only way I can define is by "presence". Some kids (and who are we kidding the girls in this sport ARE kids!) just have this amazing presence about them when they hit a beam or floor. I can't tell you WHAT it is, but it is there. I can see it from the littles in level 3 up to the elites. Some kids just have a certain way about them that to ME is artistic. Are their toes or fingers balletic? Eh, maybe? But when "I" watch them, there is this undefinable "draw" towards them. Is that nuts?
I was also thinking about how maybe body type comes into play here. Do we think the longer lined gymnasts are more "artistic" where the more "stocky" (which who are we kidding these kids are so crazy NOT stocky in real life!) girls are less likely to be viewed that way? IDK. Just some thoughts...

 

[2G1B]

Addressing the totally off topic portion of the post - I have to say that my grandfather DID die due to the wait to see a doctor. He lived in Portugal, broke his leg. He was in the hospital and they wanted the geriatric orthopedic specialist to see him. But that doctor didn't get to see him in time. They did something to keep the bone from setting while trying to get that doctor to him. He ended up with gangrene and died from complications from that.

I also have a number of friends who live in Canada who's kids have to wait for months to get in with specialists like allergists. Sure, some allergies might not be life threatening; but for kids who are suffering from really bad seasonal allergies that lead to sinus infections, it is pretty miserable. For my kids, when this was happening, we were in with the specialist 2 days after the pediatrician suggested it.

These are all anecdotal, and I have no evidence on the statistical probability of someone dying before being seen or for people having to wait to see specialists; but these are people I know in real life, so I know it does happen.

As for the artistry... Some of the "dance" that I see is kind of questionable; but I guess art is extremely subjective by nature.

 

[profmom]

I have been thinking about this for a while. I was trying to figure out exactly how you could define artistry, and then decided that you just can't. For me, I think that the only way I can define is by "presence". Some kids (and who are we kidding the girls in this sport ARE kids!) just have this amazing presence about them when they hit a beam or floor. I can't tell you WHAT it is, but it is there. I can see it from the littles in level 3 up to the elites. Some kids just have a certain way about them that to ME is artistic. Are their toes or fingers balletic? Eh, maybe? But when "I" watch them, there is this undefinable "draw" towards them. Is that nuts?
I was also thinking about how maybe body type comes into play here. Do we think the longer lined gymnasts are more "artistic" where the more "stocky" (which who are we kidding these kids are so crazy NOT stocky in real life!) girls are less likely to be viewed that way? IDK. Just some thoughts...

Really interesting point. I think you're onto something about presence, but I do not think it's body type. A couple of girls who've competed with DD have really had it -- you could just see it from the way they approached the apparatus (well, except for vault). DD has lovely long lines, but at least up to this point, does not stride out onto the floor or up to the beam like she owns it and it's simply there to serve as a backdrop for her awesomeness. DD's gym gave her outstanding teammates (sequentially) the same floor routine even though they're built somewhat differently, and for both girls, by the end a good bit of the crowd at any given meet would be watching them and clapping in time with the music.

One of the older boys on DS's team was like that, though he has since left the sport. Seriously, when he walked out onto the floor or mounted an apparatus and started to swing, you could almost feel every head in the arena swiveling in that direction, even if just for a moment. He struggled with injuries and often had to water down his routines, but they were so beautiful they would literally bring tears to your eyes. Another exhibits it on some events but not others. It's very hard to define, but it's real to me. It's a cliche, but the best way I can describe it is that watching these kids is like watching poetry in motion.

I do not think I would be able to see anything else in an arena if Llomencia Hall were on floor. Not even if my own kid were up on some apparatus or other.

 

[Natalia]

2 minutes to illustrate power ,beauty mastery


Now go tell these artists that their ballet skills are grand but they lack gymnastic power......Hahaha

So why do we insist on subjecting gymnasts to this type of perverse crap.

An elite neurologist doesn't master an elite cardiologists skill set.

The power of a Gorilla with the grace of a fairy....lets cut the cr@p!

Beauty is in mastery of a specific discipline,not a little of this and a little of that.

 

[txgymfan]

Let's keep the healthcare rants off of CB please.

 

[Midwestmommy]

I agree, but the medical costs as it relates gymnasts (who pays etc) injuries should be a fair topic. It is one component of injuries that can really impact parents. And it probably isn't so controversial that it needs to be a "swept under the rug" topic.

 

[Midwestmommy]

"and you think that "gyms" should be covering your costs for your child to be involved in an extra curricular activity?"

Dunno, I didn't say this or think it. I don't mind back and forth debate, but please I wish you would not attack me for something I didn't post (or say or think or even hint at). I'm not your sister, and probably don't have a lot in common with her, politically or professionally. In fact, I said there is no way gyms can cover this cost (WAY too expensive which is why I demonstrated the 40% scenario). Parents and employers are in fact are paying for it. So parents are not only of course concerned about the danger and injuries, but they are financially impact. Saying that is not the same thing as saying gyms should pay for it.

 

[gasrgoose]

2 minutes to illustrate power ,beauty mastery


Now go tell these artists that their ballet skills are grand but they lack gymnastic power......Hahaha

So why do we insist on subjecting gymnasts to this type of perverse crap.

An elite neurologist doesn't master an elite cardiologists skill set.

The power of a Gorilla with the grace of a fairy....lets cut the cr@p!

Beauty is in mastery of a specific discipline,not a little of this and a little of that.

I'm confused was this a sarcastic post??? These dancers do appear to lack gymnastic power. I saw one of them do a few push ups and I saw several leaps and jumps that gymnast compete on beam.

 

[LizzieLac]

I have found this conversation to be FASCINATING!! So thanks to everyone who has taken the time to write.

I just don't know how we can come to definitive conclusion about what is the most difficult sport. I mean, have you watched a short stop or 2nd basement make a play on a ball that is coming at him 120 miles an hour that required acrobatic movements, reacting in less than one second to dive without thought about the potential consequences to his body when he lands wrong, then in less than a second sets his body to throw a ball about 80 miles an hour with 100% accuracy at a target he wasn't even looking at when he threw the ball?



The thing is that elite athletes (and dancers) make it look so easy. I am sure Dunno willl still say that gymnmastics is more difficult than baseball or football or basketball...

 

[Natalia]

I'm confused was this a sarcastic post??? These dancers do appear to lack gymnastic power. I saw one of them do a few push ups and I saw several leaps and jumps that gymnast compete on beam.

Wow! Talk about lost in translation.

My point is that no one asks dancers to develop skills that are not specific to their discipline,yet everyone asks gymnasts to be powerfull acomplished athletes AND develop skills that are not inherent to gymnastics.

Of course these dancers have no where near the power of gymnasts and no one would dream to demand it from them.

 

[Midwestmommy]

This is a great article for understanding the pressure ballet dancers put on their lower extremities:

http://lowerextremityreview.com/cover_story/breaking-pointe-foot-and-ankle-injuries-in-dance

 

[cbifoja]

I don't feel artistry needs to be graceful I just like them to own it and do the moves 100% just like the girl in this video. I feel a lot of the half hearted poses are a bore to watch. That's just my opinion though.

Hm. Hate to say but I really did not enjoy that routine. Yes, it was enthusiastic but I don't consider it artistic. It felt very "flail-y" to me....almost like she was possessed by some spirit. I agree that she is an obviously talented gymnast being subjected to some bizarre choreography.

 

[Natalia]

Hm. Hate to say but I really did not enjoy that routine. Yes, it was enthusiastic but I don't consider it artistic. It felt very "flail-y" to me....almost like she was possessed by some spirit. I agree that she is an obviously talented gymnast being subjected to some bizarre choreography.

This is why we can't evaluate artistry,it's in the eye of the beholder.Honestly,I share your opinion that this looked bizarre.

Now I'm really going to stick my neck out:

The prancing and strutting that girls do on floor often boarders on kitsch.

I beleive that the beauty of gymnastics is to be found within the movements themselves,executed with great technique and great form.

 

[LIGYMMOM]

I've been lurking on this one and I have to say that I sort of miss the floor routines of a decade or two ago. The days of the Karolyi 6 pack? SO much fun to watch. I, as an observer, enjoy the balance between difficulty and artistry and I think that now that tumbling passes have gotten to be so much more difficult, floor is a bit less fun to watch IMO. Things have gotten so difficult that USAG had to revamp the levels this year.

I think that we, as parents, depend on coaches like Dunno to have the passion and the respect that they do for gymnastics. We give them our children and say "make them great gymnasts!" And they do, because they love the sport and respect our kids for being gymnasts. Just like a teacher with a great passion for teaching, I want the coach who thinks gymnastics is the greatest and hardest sport there is.

I also think that coaches (maybe sometimes unknowingly), depend on us parents to say when enough is enough. To know our kids so well that we know when they need to dial it back, or if they're hurting and covering it up because they don't want to stop doing what they love. To be their emotional advocate.

It's the balance, the difficulty vs. artistry, the passionate coach vs. the concerned parent, that makes gymnastics the greatest sport there is.

 

[txgymfan]

Jumping into the debate here. If you want more balanced floor and beam routines with less difficulty than elite but still hard look at the top NCAA routines. I recently saw beam routines (on youtube) that Oklahoma is practicing for this season and they are beautiful. Look up routines by Oklahoma, UCLA and Florida ( my favorite college teams). Not all routines are perfectly artistic but in general you will see more balance between form, dance and difficulty especially on the top teams.

 

[Midwestmommy]

"and you think that "gyms" should be covering your costs for your child to be involved in an extra curricular activity?"

Dunno, I didn't say this or think it. I don't mind back and forth debate, but please I wish you would not attack me for something I didn't post (or say or think or even hint at). I'm not your sister, and probably don't have a lot in common with her, politically or professionally. In fact, I said there is no way gyms can cover this cost (WAY too expensive which is why I demonstrated the 40% scenario). Parents and employers are in fact are paying for it. So parents are not only of course concerned about the danger and injuries, but they are financially impact. Saying that is not the same thing as saying gyms should pay for it.

Also, my 2,000 out of pocket is deductible and coin durance, not premium. That amount is in addition to what I pay in premium (premium like you for my family is a much bigger number than that per year).

 

[happychaos]

Not really true. The huge waiting lists are for non-urgent or elective procedures. If you have something needing urgent care you get seen very quickly. Of all the complaints about the NHS, it's unheard of (to my knowledge at least) for someone to die (of that complaint) because of a waiting list. You get bumped up the list according to urgency, which is why some people wait for a long time, if they're non-urgent they get shoved to the back of the list. Children in particular are seen almost immediately. My gymnast was seen, x-rayed, and reviewed within an hour, for a minor injury.

The government deciding when I can or can't be see a doctor is just so foreign to me. I sure hope it never comes to that in the U.S. I had a friend in Canada who waited 8 months for an "elective" surgery (hip replacement) Meanwhile she was in great pain, and could hardly function. And couldn't travel because she never knew when she might be told her "turn" had arrived. And she felt that her wait time was short compared to others! I think the people who laud this type of care have become so used to it that they are complacent. The horror stories about people not having access to care in the U.S. are often overblown and propagandized (I said often...not always). Bottom line- yes everyone need access to healthcare, but there ARE better ways to achieve that than the government distributing it. These posts referencing "huge waiting lists" are proof of that. I think doctors and patients should decide the timeline for treatment- NOT some arbitrary list keeper.

 

[txgymfan]

Please keep this discussion to gymnastics. We hear enough about healthcare politics on the news. If you wish to discuss healthcare availability there are many other places to do so.

 

[Kiwi]

My point is that no one asks dancers to develop skills that are not specific to their discipline,yet everyone asks gymnasts to be powerfull acomplished athletes AND develop skills that are not inherent to gymnastics.

I don't understand why you say these skills are not 'inherent to gymnastics'. They are and have been for a very long time. Artistic gymnastics is the blend of acrobatics and dance, it isn't just acrobatics. I guess you could argue that they are two different sets of skills, but both are inherent to artistic gymnastics. Gymnasts are not expected to do everything that ballet dancers do, such as dance en pointe. And sometimes dancers do include some gymnastics moves in dance.

Look at the early routines in this montage, the dance is very balletic: