Coaches Conditioning - how often do you change your gymnasts regime?

[marie83]

Just wondering really!



We change our 'mass' conditioning programme every 3 months or so. By 'mass' I mean all the squad gymnasts are doing the conditioning together at the beginning of the session. We sometimes do a big circuit, other times we do it all together, very regimented, or sometimes we split the gymnasts into random groups, regardless of age or ability and send them to condition for 10 minutes on floor, vault, bars or beam, doing some general and some skill specific conditioning. We have found changing the programme every 3 months gives the gymnasts time to get used to the exercises and to learn how to perform them correctly, and it also prevents them from getting bored!


Later in the session in our age groups we do more specific conditioning for individual skills - these 'warm ups' as we call them change when they get too easy for the individual gymnast. They each have a training diary to keep a note of how many reps they should do! Some move on more quickly than others!

How often do you review your gymnast's conditioning programme?

 

[BlairBob]

I changed my S&C programming with MAG every 4-8 weeks. With WAG, I either didn't have the power to change it or exercises sort of rotated day to day anyways. There wasn't a need to really focus on obtaining any ring strength and having to carefully program that. I also had to fight amongst other coaches about proper programming besides broscience and so I just couldn't effect so much. So at the last gym I really gave up and would do what I wanted when I could and tried to ignore their crap the rest of the time.

Basically push, pull, legs, core and rotating exercises among these modalities. If anything, rep scheme and sets would change gymnast to gymnast to target on their weaknesses.

I'm not really a fan of general S&C programs for a group especially when they don't target individuals strength or weaknesses. I'm ok with different gymnasts working different things and that being that but it is way more complicated.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

3 week cycles.

 

[BlairBob]

3 week cycles with a light week after 3 weeks isn't really a bad idea. One of my former mentors advocates this. 4th week is 1/2 volume at the same intensity with S&C but still same hours.

 

[marie83]

Thanks for replies so far!

To be honest I quite like the group conditioning as it gives all coaches a chance to work with all of the gymnasts. Other coaches might pick up on something another coach misses etc. the exercises we do work pretty much every muscle group and we do each exercise for a certain time so those who find it easier can either have it made harder or fit more reps in in that time, those who struggle can have the exercise made easier and concentrate more on their technique. However I do see your point Blairbob!
The plans in the training diaries are specific to each gymnast.

It's interesting that you both say 3 or 4 weeks to review programme. I think we've always gone for 12 weeks as that is how our terms run and that's when the gymnasts have their reviews sent home!

Is there some Research that says 3-4 weeks is optimal or is that a coincidence that you both do that?

 

[BlairBob]

Generally an individual can adapt neurologically to new stimulus within 3-6 weeks. But bare in mind, with most gymnasts they should already be familiar with most movements besides the new kids or if you introduce a new exercise.

I like 1 or 2 months because it's easier to program cycles during the year. Technically there are 52 weeks aka 13 months but ehh, let's not worry about that as it all works out.

For MAG, you are in competition Jan thru March for compulsories maybe thru April if it's optionals and beyond if you have some National kids. So basically, that's 2 cycles which leaves 4 more cycles, 2 post season and 2 preseason. This is pretty much the same if you compete in the spring for the girls in compulsory or optionals.

If you compete in the fall then you are in competition season from August thru November. There might be a preseason meet in mid August but you are done by December so that's 4 months aka 2 cycles.

You can also use 3 post season cycles and 1 pre season cycle preparing for the competitive season.

Ideally, I like planning for 3-4 weeks at a time. I don't want to plan 2-3 months at a time because in case something is not working I can switch it after 3 weeks and by 3 weeks I can see if something isn't working or is a waste of time.

Again training for MAG and WAG is much different seeing that MAG requires strength skills in the compulsories or optionals whereas for the girls no strength skills are required ever.

 

[JBS]

I'm not really a fan of general S&C programs for a group especially when they don't target individuals strength or weaknesses. I'm ok with different gymnasts working different things and that being that but it is way more complicated.

How do you target an individuals strengths/weaknesses. Are their certain exercises that you chart/track...if so...what exercises.

I ask because...our strength program is our weakness.

 

[BlairBob]

A lot of my programming was based on the GymnasticBodies program. I got the first book in the US, eventually went to the weekend seminar and was a moderator there till this year. When I was at Berkeley, the coach above me "asked" me to read Verkhovshanky and SuperTraining the first week I was there and lent me a copy.

Over the past years I test a lot of different variables looking for weaknesses and strengths. When I started out as a rec coach, I remember it was bridge for time, 20 yd dash, pullups on rings and pronated on a single rail, dips and number of hollow or arch rocks and vertical jump.

Eventually it evolved into hollow/arch (progression) hold for time, L-sit, L-hang, straddle-L hold/hang, single leg squats, skin the cats, Hanging Leg Lifts, ring support, planche hold progression for time, front lever progression for time, wall HS, wall HSPU, dips PB/rings, body lever, maybe a few others.

Oh yeah, vertical jump and broad jump. Between vertical jump and sprint speed, you can pretty much gauge their leg strength and power. I also started testing how many single leg jumps it would take to cross the floor or single leg jumping over a distance (like 20 yards). That will tell you a lot and you can also watch to see if their ankles are strong or weak. That's another I got from Yoshi.

I also tested the angles of their bridge, pike, middle and front splits and shoulder extension (sit on floor and reach behind you while lowering armpits to floor). There is a whole bunch of other various stretches you can do to test shoulder flexibility or hip flexibility.

For girls, a lot of these I don't test or do. Too many girls, and you don't need to test most of the ring strength stuff.

As well there was also a strength skills chart so they can tack when they got a press HS from straddle stand, pike, straddle-L, L, etc and other various skills like rope climb no legs 1/2 way, all the way up, how long they can hold a HS, etc.

A lot of the exercises were from Sommer's BuildingTheGymnasticBody but also Yoshi Nakayama's GETFIT http://usagym.org/pages/home/publications/technique/2006/8/pdf/GetFit.pdf

Thing is, you can't really accurately test all of the skills the same day. Generally it takes about a week or so, so it is a time suck to be done in the off-season. If you test pullups, you can kiss off on testing skin the cats. Basically I would do one big testing and then every once in awhile a kid could challenge a test or I might retest the basic planche, back lever, front lever, L and wall HS, ring support, single leg squats, HLL and skin the cats every cycle.

It's also important not to test exercises where they may do really long holds or a zillion reps. I wouldn't test pushups or situps probably. Another test I wouldn't do it a horizontal leg lift hold of a pommel horse. That took forever.

Once I started implementing deadlifts or squats, you could tell which kids had poor lower body strength or flexibility and didn't. Testing a basic body squat ( air squat ) or single leg squat will tell that a lot.

I never really tested them and just kept track of it during leg strength days. I mean, if a kid is deadlifting their BW or squatting their BW, they tended to be strong. If they could do that for like 10 or 15 reps, well you get the picture.

 

[Deleted member 14190]

We have heavy and light months etc... but we change the actual conditioning exercises almost daily. I have several conditioning coaches and I encourage them to work different things, so long as the basic strength is being done as well, (pushups, presses, dips, pull ups, etc..) Muscle confusion is key.

 

[BlairBob]

Muscle confusion is key.

:rotfl:

P90X, eat your heart out.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

Thanks for replies so far!

To be honest I quite like the group conditioning as it gives all coaches a chance to work with all of the gymnasts. Other coaches might pick up on something another coach misses etc. the exercises we do work pretty much every muscle group and we do each exercise for a certain time so those who find it easier can either have it made harder or fit more reps in in that time, those who struggle can have the exercise made easier and concentrate more on their technique. However I do see your point Blairbob!
The plans in the training diaries are specific to each gymnast.

It's interesting that you both say 3 or 4 weeks to review programme. I think we've always gone for 12 weeks as that is how our terms run and that's when the gymnasts have their reviews sent home!

Is there some Research that says 3-4 weeks is optimal or is that a coincidence that you both do that?

Bompa: the body adapts at about 3 week intervals. there is no gain after that. the body gets "bored" so to speak. therefore, you change up the variety and it forces the body to re-adapt to the "new" stress being placed upon it. yes, it is in the research.

 

[BlairBob]

Coach P, I am going to try and be respectful and cordial. Because you are probably coaching at a much higher level than I ever have.

But for the love of GOD, please don't ever say "Muscle Confusion" when we are talking about Bompa or Mel Siff or Verkhoshansky or basically any Russian or Bulgarian (though they were known to misinform a lot).

I can only imagine Bill Sand's face if he heard that.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

"muscle confusion" does not exist. Joe Weider thought it did...

p.s. if Bill is reading this thread i'm certain that he is having a hardy laugh.

 

[Deleted member 14190]

Coach P, I am going to try and be respectful and cordial. Because you are probably coaching at a much higher level than I ever have.

But for the love of GOD, please don't ever say "Muscle Confusion" when we are talking about Bompa or Mel Siff or Verkhoshansky or basically any Russian or Bulgarian (though they were known to misinform a lot).

I can only imagine Bill Sand's face if he heard that.

=
Well I am not suggesting that a muscle actually gets confused,, but I think its a relative term to describe changing up exercises often. Sounds better to me then "changing up all the time, or mixing it up", and yes I think I heard it on TV. We have our basic strength and we change everything else around all the time, different abb workouts and sequences, different leg strength etc... Seems to work, but like any coach I always want them stronger.

 

[marie83]

Bompa: the body adapts at about 3 week intervals. there is no gain after that. the body gets "bored" so to speak. therefore, you change up the variety and it forces the body to re-adapt to the "new" stress being placed upon it. yes, it is in the research.

Thank you!